Help w/ strange TC/Shift issue with Fuel Sipper tune

[soutthpaw]

I have ran the fuel sipper for a couple days now and its good except it does a strange shift hunting thing at light throttle around 40MPH it shfits up/down/up/down a few times... esp when cruise control is set.. I looked at the up and down shift points in FUNCTIONS and they are way lower than the range it is shifting at... does it with warm and cold tranny... Is there another map or parameter I should look at to adjust. I thought it was a 3-4 4-3 shift issue but I briefly had a chanve to run the AE on it and it looks like the TC is locking and unlocking repeatedly and can't settle on where it wants to be(while its in OD). I notice the 100HP tune has a similar shift curve but slightly higher (about 6mph) so I'm gonna try and see if it still does it using cruise in the 100HP tune...
is the 3-4/4-3 shift with (cruise) labeled like that specific for tuning the cruise control shift points??? it seems logical but I already found out that doesn't mean its correct :crazy: I really need some time without my kids in the truck to run the AE software as well to see what its really doing... so I can see the throttle position when it does these shifts/ TC lock/unlock... I don't recall the 80HP having that issue though I replaced the 80m spot with the FS tune...
It also seems to lock the TC kind of hard like someone has a tow strap attached and giving it a tug when the TC locks. I can't seem to find what parameter is different from the 80 HP tune so not sure what to try changing

[cleatus12r]

Since Bill is away, you can email me the file and I'll take a look at it if you'd like. cleatus12r@yahoo.com

Not saying I can definitely fix it...but I have the weekend to myself and can live tune.

[cleatus12r]

Actually, I see that Bill is on at the moment. Maybe he's got a better idea.

[soutthpaw]

I sent you a PM. Hopefully I can get a chance tonite to find a flat open road and get some AE datalogs. I did one but didnt get all the data I needed
weird is that calculated torque does not work with AE. it works on the Genisys.. Also with cruise it does not display actual throttle pedal position
you will see in the tune that the 4th gear TC lockup is at 4MPH but the 80HP tune is at 42mph I think it was... if its supposed to be always locked why is it unlocking and relocking at 40 mph? The only thing I can think of is that it thinks its about to downshift?
EDIT::doh: I totally missed your email address in the above post will send ya the file :thumbs up yellow:

[Power Hungry]

What is the RPM when the converter locks? There are functions that designate a minimum RPM for converter to be engaged. It may be that you're dropping below the minimum RPM for converter engagement but above the MPH point for converter engagement.

Having fun yet? No you see the crazy stuff we have to deal with all the time!

I'll try to locate the specific function that controls it and let you know. Right now, that computer is packed in the back of the Expy and I can't get to it.

Take care.

[soutthpaw]

The RPM was one I didn't get recorded the way i set up AE so that's one reason I need to run it again. first time I used the datalogging function... also need to do it without using cruise so I can get pedal position.... I figured there has to be some sort of modifier to the base setting :crazy:
Oh and I am in Heaven now defined as "when both my kids are down for their nap at the same time:happy-dancing:"

[cleatus12r]

I have ran the fuel sipper for a couple days now and its good except it does a strange shift hunting thing at light throttle around 40MPH it shfits up/down/up/down a few times... esp when cruise control is set.. I looked at the up and down shift points in FUNCTIONS and they are way lower than the range it is shifting at... does it with warm and cold tranny... Is there another map or parameter I should look at to adjust. I thought it was a 3-4 4-3 shift issue but I briefly had a chanve to run the AE on it and it looks like the TC is locking and unlocking repeatedly and can't settle on where it wants to be(while its in OD). I notice the 100HP tune has a similar shift curve but slightly higher (about 6mph) so I'm gonna try and see if it still does it using cruise in the 100HP tune...
is the 3-4/4-3 shift with (cruise) labeled like that specific for tuning the cruise control shift points??? it seems logical but I already found out that doesn't mean its correct :crazy: I really need some time without my kids in the truck to run the AE software as well to see what its really doing... so I can see the throttle position when it does these shifts/ TC lock/unlock... I don't recall the 80HP having that issue though I replaced the 80m spot with the FS tune...
It also seems to lock the TC kind of hard like someone has a tow strap attached and giving it a tug when the TC locks. I can't seem to find what parameter is different from the 80 HP tune so not sure what to try changing

DJ,

I'm going to run this tune first thing in the morning. I have spent a while looking at it. I assume you changed the tire size to 601 Rev/mile to lower the PCM's perceived road speed. In addition, you should NEVER have a condition when you're in 4th gear and the torque converter is unlocked unless the PCM is in cold transmission mode. The PCM will command a 4-3 downshift and subsequent TC unlock/relock (and the faster that happens, the better).

Your TC lockup points are unchanged...while the upshift speeds are lowered 2-4 MPH. This might be an issue....and it's going to be exaggerated with different vehicles, elevation, and state of tune.

Your TC harsh lockup is caused by a higher-than-stock lockup duty cycle. Remember, we have a PWM TCC solenoid...the higher the duty cycle during lockup, the more it becomes like an on/off solenoid. The second issue is the torque table...I feel it's a little high in the low load section of the table. The higher the torque table values, the harder EVERYTHING is going to apply. It's just a personal preference of mine to lower the values in the torque reduction during shifts as well. I see that most folks like to run 100% torque during shifts. I prefer about 62-75%.....I call it my tranny saver. I command a quick, firm shift but I never feel it happen.


I'll drive around tomorrow and see what I can see.

A couple suggestions...lower the torque table values in the lower loads by 100-150 ft. lbs. or so.

Lower the TCC lockup duty cycle back to near stock....maybe just slightly higher.

Run a slightly different change in each of your 6 positions and find the one that works the best.


I'll let you know what I come up with on the shifting/TCC issue you're having.

You do know how to quickly copy and paste table data from one project to another don't you? It's a lifesaver while loading stock data back to a modified table.

[soutthpaw]

We are thinking along the same lines.. I am wondering if the altitude is an issue as I am at 6000ft

I changed the tire size based off the BFG chart for my larger tires 315/85r16 maybe ill change it back to the stock 653 on one position and see if that changes anything... if it does then Ill try changing the shift points by the same 8.7%
I was thinking about the torque but shouldn't be an issue at light throttle right?

How does the rpm for anticipated and non-anticipated shifts work? Like I said in another post I am not well versed in transmissions.. I did not have a chance to go run the AE today... I think if i can identify the exact rpm and throttle position TCC status, MPH it will help a lot in fixing it... its basically Bills stock FS file... so its weird that it only seems to do it in that setting though I know he said that the shift points are lowered compared to most of the other tunes... that is why I was thinking its a shift point issue...

I gotta do the front axle and brake overhaul tmw. so not sure if Ill get to play with it... depends on how much time the other stuff takes.

[cleatus12r]

DJ,

I went out and drove it today. First off.....wow. I'm glad that everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's not a bad program, but it's definitely not for me.


Anyway, I was able to duplicate what I think you are feeling....it did it once for me.

Without knowing exactly what to expect and when to expect it, my first instinct is that as the 4-3 downshift is occuring, the torque converter is unlocking. That's normal. The bump you feel after that is the TC locking back up for 3rd gear since you're still at a road speed that allows TC lockup in 3rd.....but just barely. I think it happened at 37 MPH (indicated) up a small incline, low load, and slowly losing speed. It did "double bump" so to speak.

What needs to happen here? Either the 4-3 shift needs to occur earlier (higher speed), later (lower speed), the TC apply rate needs to be slowed down to take away from the "jerk" feel, or the TC relock time after the 4-3 downshift needs to be eliminated.

Raising the 4-3 downshift speed would allow the transmission to downshift before the engine gets to 1200 RPM and help by not transferring as much torque during the downshift. Lowering the downshift speed would allow a 4-3 downshift without an attempt to relock the torque converter in 3rd.

I would do a combination of a few things. I would change the relock time after 4-3 downshift to something rediculously low like .13 seconds. This will get rid of the perceived "flare" and then jerk on relock. I would also raise the 4-3 downshift speed by a couple MPH.....it's not really doing you any favors having it unlock at 37 MPH. You're also right about the harsh TCC apply. Since it's a file meant for economy, it's not meant to be "hogged on" and therefore very low APP is usually used. I'd lower the TCC apply duty cycle a bit in the lower load ranges too.

[cleatus12r]

DJ,

This is a derailment....

I liked the Fountain area a lot. I've ridden my bike (crotch rocket) from Colorado Springs to Fountain a couple of times. It's one of the sweetest rides at moderate speed (when traffic allows). It compares to Wolf Creek Canyon near Helena here in Montana.....only CO has more traffic.

Beautiful country.

I couldn't imagine a 7500+ lb. Excursion with 3.73 gears, 35 inch tires, and these really early shifts at 6000 ft. I had a hell of a time one year I went to Colorado Springs in my 95 PSD. I was only running 35 inch tires, 4.10 gears, and a Big Hoss chip and that thing was a TURD.....even though it was better than average here at 4000 ft. Having no air is a real handicap. Sea level would ROCK.

[soutthpaw]

I just sent ya an email with the AE datalog I did this AM.. I even have a video of the instrument cluster on my blackberry but need to convert to play it
had to zip the file up to load it into the thread but at least Bill or anyone else can see it too that way :cheesy smile:

here is the cut and paste text
I monitored shift solenoid 2 as it shows "0" when in 4th and "1" in 3rd gear.

between about point 72 and 168 can see 2 sections where its got a constant speed and stays in OD but the RPM keeps fluctuating between about 1500 and 1000-1100 caused by the TCC locking and unlocking and the speed is constant around 40-41 mph throttle is running about 23%

Let me know what ya think, had a chance to get this data this am
Thanks DJ

OH I couldn't duplicate the effect in 60, 100 or 140 tunes either....
http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=65&pictureid=329

[cleatus12r]

DJ,

Wow. Yeah. I see that. For some reason, the TCC isn't being commanded on....when it SHOULD be. Weird. I just drove mine again to see if I could get it to do what your datalog showed. Nope. Mine doesn't do it.

As far as your shift solenoid "issue" goes, there are two shift solenoids in the transmission that control the 4 gears. They work like a logic table. For example:

1 off, 2 off = 4th
1 off, 2 on = 3rd
1 on, 2 off = 1st
1 on, 2 on = 2nd

This goes along with what your AE showed you....SS2 "0" (off) in 4th and "1" (on) in 3rd.

If this parameter is changing when your TC is acting up, then you have a correlation issue between 3-4 and 4-3 shift points.

That's a neat software package you have there, DJ.

EDIT:
I see that the SS2 value changed at frame 143-ish. The TC was acting up before that..... Hmmm.

[soutthpaw]

Yeah its really strange. I sent Bill a PM so hopefully he will jump in again when he gets a chance as it's "his" tune... before I start changing stuff...... That's the first time I have used the AE software so pretty cool. and Being a CSV file anyone can look at the data in spreadsheet form without needing the AE software which I though was pretty cool instead of being a propitiatory format...
It all runs of my Sansung NC10 netbook which makes it real convenient to use;)

here is the video mataches to the 120-140 range of graph
Video of RPM surge (http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/soutthpaw/Vehicles/Trucks/?action=view&current=ba5d5dbc.pbr)

[cleatus12r]

As far as any opinions go on this....

I got it to act up in my truck.

It shifted fine and correctly up until 4th gear and would hold 38-40 MPH all day and not have an issue. Once the speedometer hit 37, the torque converter would unlock and then start it's lock/unlock sequence.

Returning the 3-4 and 4-3 shift tables to normal (stock settings) gets rid of all issues with the shift....and it still shifts rediculously early. The thing to keep in mind is that the tune makes the accelerator pedal far more responsive than stock so the TP a/d is going to be lower for any road speed anyway so the transmission will shift earlier than stock all things considered.

For all intents and purposes, correcting for tire size and leaving the 3-4 and 4-3 shift parameters the same as stock would probably work just fine. Between us, another well-known tuner doesn't change the shift points at all for his "economy" tunes. The stock settings with a more sensitive APP makes the transmission shift early too.

[soutthpaw]

As far as any opinions go on this....

I got it to act up in my truck.

It shifted fine and correctly up until 4th gear and would hold 38-40 MPH all day and not have an issue. Once the speedometer hit 37, the torque converter would unlock and then start it's lock/unlock sequence.

Returning the 3-4 and 4-3 shift tables to normal (stock settings) gets rid of all issues with the shift....and it still shifts rediculously early. The thing to keep in mind is that the tune makes the accelerator pedal far more responsive than stock so the TP a/d is going to be lower for any road speed anyway so the transmission will shift earlier than stock all things considered.

For all intents and purposes, correcting for tire size and leaving the 3-4 and 4-3 shift parameters the same as stock would probably work just fine. Between us, another well-known tuner doesn't change the shift points at all for his "economy" tunes. The stock settings with a more sensitive APP makes the transmission shift early too.
Thanks for your work and incite on this.. I sent you an email too. After I saw where it was shifting I wondered about the anticipated shift setting that starts at 1500RPM. Also even with the tire size corrected it still takes more torque to turn the larger diameter tires regardless of the speed. So it was not the Torque reduction issue right as the low throttle position wouldn't put excessive torque to the tranny in the first place...
Ok looked at the difference in upshift and its about 6mph difference.. I could just shift the lower half to stock and let the second half of the throttle from 512 to 1023 slide back to the lower shift points and see how that does...
Did you end up removing or changing the TC lockup or relock delay?

[cleatus12r]

DJ,

You have mail.

[soutthpaw]

Guess what? I :rtfm::rtfm: and now got the shortcut keys down for copying and pasting along with changing the views etc.... :whistle1::giggle::giggle:
I ordered a bluetooth keypad on ebay last week so I will start to play with the 3D maps once I get that...
I did chat with Bill a bit about using the 3D maps but really haven't got a good understanding of them yet... The 3rd value is throwing me off. usually the X and Y are not labeled as to what they are and sometimes i can tell as its obvious but other times I am not sure what one of the 3 value are referring to. I usually make sense of 2 of them... X and Z most of the time but the Y value throw me....
Anyway I started modifing my shift strategies while the kids were playing at the Y today

Got your email... Thanks, will look at it shortly and overlay it on the new shift values I did this morning and see how it compares:thumbs up yellow:

[cleatus12r]

DJ,




You do know how to quickly copy and paste table data from one project to another don't you? It's a lifesaver while loading stock data back to a modified table.


:):howdy:

Oh, and while you're at it, I didn't change any of the 4-3 relock parameters in yours....I wanted to see what you thought about it the way it is right now first.

[soutthpaw]

Cool we are pretty close on shift points. I went slightly higher on 1-2 cuz I figure you are in first gear such a short time the fuel savings is negligible.. I see you added the Torque Reduction so that will be interesting to try... I am gonna make half a dozen or so similar maps then load them all and try them out..
Oh I just figured out the maps, F6 will show the name of the X and Y parameters :doh: now i get it:idea: just went on!

[cleatus12r]

If you go to the toolbar and "view" then "options" you can select how each (maps and functions) are displayed when they are first opened.

[soutthpaw]

I noticed you shifted the values higher... will this change that "more power off idle" effect AKA improved light throttle response??
Did you change any of the other Non-transmission values?
THanks

[cleatus12r]

I don't know what "values" you're talking about. I don't think I touched any engine values....

[soutthpaw]

I don't know what "values" you're talking about. I don't think I touched any engine values....
I realized I was looking at the wrong project :doh: it was not the file you sent yeah they are the same now. Just played with the 3D maps and changing groups of values at once... that is really trick... now its making a lot more sense

[Jackpine]

Just want you two to know - I'm absolutely loving this "back and forth", even though I don't understand half of it. Keep it up guys - it may turn out to be an important addition to the forum! :thumbs up yellow:

- Jack

[soutthpaw]

Thanks, If I think my question will be of benefit to others at some point down the road I try and post it so that it becomes a useful discussion. Otherwise I just ask Bill or whoever directly.... I guess there are only about 10-20 Minotaur packages in use right now so we are a pretty small group, however as it gets more well known and more folks get to read this forum, hopefully we will get more people to "take the plunge" and get the software too. Keep in mind its the same package that can be used for programming the Gassers too. You should download it and just run the demo file. its an older mustang file I believe.. As a moderator I am sure Bill would get ya setup, maybe even send you a diesel file so you can follow along better. it would make more sense then. I can easy post more screen shots too, now I got the Farstone Screen Capture App... Just let me know if you want to see a picture of anything we are discussing and Ill post it up:crazy::thumbs up yellow:

[Jackpine]

Thanks, If I think my question will be of benefit to others at some point down the road I try and post it so that it becomes a useful discussion. Otherwise I just ask Bill or whoever directly.... I guess there are only about 10-20 Minotaur packages in use right now so we are a pretty small group, however as it gets more well known and more folks get to read this forum, hopefully we will get more people to "take the plunge" and get the software too. Keep in mind its the same package that can be used for programming the Gassers too. You should download it and just run the demo file. its an older mustang file I believe.. As a moderator I am sure Bill would get ya setup, maybe even send you a diesel file so you can follow along better. it would make more sense then. I can easy post more screen shots too, now I got the Farstone Screen Capture App... Just let me know if you want to see a picture of anything we are discussing and Ill post it up:crazy::thumbs up yellow:

I guess I could do this, but.... How do I gain the experience that Bill has? I DO know programming, microprocessors, and a tiny bit about internal combustion engines. I doubt this will turn me into an expert tuner!

- Jack

[soutthpaw]

I was not suggesting that you start tuning yourself but thought it will give you a bit more incite into PHP products. When you see all the variables that you get to work with it will give u a new found respect for tuning. Maybe give you ideas when talking to folks about tuning issues too. Like what is really happening when you increase shift Firmness on a Gryphon etc.... :thumbs up yellow:

[cleatus12r]

Less talking...more driving.:whistle1:


So, as far as the 'throttle response' goes.........

There are a couple of ways to go about it. Just keep in mind that increasing the low-APP sensitivity is REALLY going to wreak havoc on your cruise control. The potential is there to really make cruise control very user-unfriendly. At 70 MPH yesterday, there were a few instances where I wanted to turn the cruise off because it was surging. But then again, between the "low boost fueling" being lower than stock at low boost levels and my TN turbocharger that runs 2 PSI of boost at 70 MPH, I may have problems that you won't. The cruise had to adjust fuel rate a lot just to maintain speed and once there was a little boost, THEN the fuel would start coming on.

If you're wondering about the "dead throttle" for a while (until oil temperature comes up), look a little bit at fueling maps that base fueling on oil temperature. I don't know if I'd do any adjustments to those however as the SOI is pretty radical in this tune (although not as high as some high-HP tunes) and it's fairly important to be up to operating temperature before getting too excited with the skinny pedal at that point.

[soutthpaw]

funny you mentioned the dead throttle... It is pretty significant when I first start up in cool weather.. Actually had to flip over to another tune to get out of the driveway a couple days ago.. didn't want to wait for the truck to warm up a bit. I did buy 5w40 Rotella synthentic oil for my next oil change... I want to see what difference that makes too... currently on Delo 15w40 dino oil....
Also considering going to the Flex a Lite 278 electric fan setup.... just seems there would be some good advantages to it...

faster warm-up
more fuel efficient
better A/C cooling at low speed and low rpm

I need to makes a few more modded tranny tunes so i can reflash a full set of 6.
going to try a couple tweaks to the Cruise control parameters too...
just got to squeeze in computer time between watching my kids..

If my understanding is correct the early SOI improves fuel economy right? too early and you get the DP 80E effect:smiley_roll1::evillol:

[soutthpaw]

I am looking forward to our trip to CA later this month so I can see how the tunes feel at sea level... That way I will have a better reference when I get back to the mountains and do some more tuning.... Actually the settings now are pretty good for easy driving.. I have the 100 and 140 on either side of FS position now so Real Power is not far away...

[cleatus12r]

I am looking forward to our trip to CA later this month so I can see how the tunes feel at sea level... That way I will have a better reference when I get back to the mountains and do some more tuning....

HA HA

You'll get down there and not want to get back to your no-air-having home. I've been to sea level with a couple of my vehicles. It's hard to believe how well they run down there.......

Then I have to come back and relearn how to live with my gutless turds.

[soutthpaw]

Well I am starting to find my way back on the forum after my trip to the UK and now in CA. Question for Bill, Just wandering if you got a chance to look at the fuel sipper tune and make any changes yourself as several of us seem to have a similar issue with the TC lockup that I started this thread about.

Silly me, thought I might actually get some time to work on my tunes while on "vacation" anyway just changed my Tire size setting so gonna go to WalMart tmw and have the tires installed there because I can get the lifetime balance deal... The tire I got from a local Remington distributor at a killer price but they are always busy for installs and they only do static balancing... 4 tires wer $509 out the door.. :happy-dancing: