Throttle response?!?!

[RobbyMartin]

I was wondering if any of you guys have experienced a lack of throttle response similar to what turbo lag would be? When I mash the gas the truck hesitates like it has swallowed too much air and then seems to catch up with itself.
I've cleaned the MAF and air cleaner, I've replaced the DPFE, EGR, Plugs, IAC and it runs better but still hesitates. I have a Hypertech Power Programmer III installed and I'm afraid thats the issue but I don't know for sure. I DO plan to purchase the Gryphon but in the meantime I'm trying to solve this issue. Any suggestions?

2002 F150 Supercrew 4.6L (Airaid intake and 3" T-Flow exhaust and Hypertech PPIII)

[88Racing]

Throttle position sensor?

Lars:shrug:

[fordkindaguy]

Fuel filter possibly? Take the hypertech off and run it stock, see if that resolves your lag problem. By the way, just get the gryphon either way in the end its better!:2thumbs:

[Jackpine]

Robby, I had the same complaint when I first got my 2005. There'd be this "pause" (what do I do now?) thing anytime I stepped on the gas to pass someone.

As soon as I applied the canned tow tune when I got my Edge (now a Gryphon), that went away. To me, that alone was worth the cost of the programmer!

Things have only gotten better with custom tunes of course.

- Jack

[88Racing]

Fuel filter possibly? Take the hypertech off and run it stock, see if that resolves your lag problem. By the way, just get the gryphon either way in the end its better!:2thumbs:

Yes good answer!
Forgot about that one!
Also check the fuel pressure regulator and pressure at the fuel rail.
Being you own a 97-03 you have a cable TB and when I had mine I never had any lag.

Lars

[RobbyMartin]

Yes good answer!
Forgot about that one!
Also check the fuel pressure regulator and pressure at the fuel rail.
Being you own a 97-03 you have a cable TB and when I had mine I never had any lag.

Lars

I forgot to mention that I replaced the fuel filter as well and that didn't cure the problem.
A few years ago I replaced the fuel pump and that didn't change anything either but what I did notice was the fuel gauge reading would change. I used to get about 200 miles or more at half tank and now I'm lucky to get 175. At empty, i am lucky to get 290-300 when i used to get 325-335. What could be the problem?

As far as the Gryphon, I use my truck as a daily driver and I want throttle response and fuel economy. I rarely tow but if I do it's about 2500 lbs. or less. I never have a need to race it since its lifted with 35" tires. With that being said, what tunes should be purchased with a Gryphon?

[Jackpine]

You probably need only the 87 octane performance/economy tune. You've pretty much defined what you're looking for in the tune with your post. It's probably pretty close to what I asked for: Good highway passing performance and any improvement possible on gas mileage.

However, since you've got the big tires, you've effectively reduced your gear ratio. I wonder if Bill could write a custom tow tune that would help you even when you're towing THOSE loads? Since tunes are only $30, seems like maybe a reasonable question to ask him.

- Jack

[88Racing]

I forgot to mention that I replaced the fuel filter as well and that didn't cure the problem.
A few years ago I replaced the fuel pump and that didn't change anything either but what I did notice was the fuel gauge reading would change. I used to get about 200 miles or more at half tank and now I'm lucky to get 175. At empty, i am lucky to get 290-300 when i used to get 325-335. What could be the problem?

As far as the Gryphon, I use my truck as a daily driver and I want throttle response and fuel economy. I rarely tow but if I do it's about 2500 lbs. or less. I never have a need to race it since its lifted with 35" tires. With that being said, what tunes should be purchased with a Gryphon?

When you lifted the truck and put the big rubbers on is that when you noticed the decrease in mpg's?
Big tires=-mpgs
Regearing can get some of the mpgs back, but not all of them.
What the gearing on the truck now?
And definately a custom tune will help.

Lars:2thumbs:

[RobbyMartin]

When you lifted the truck and put the big rubbers on is that when you noticed the decrease in mpg's?
Big tires=-mpgs
Regearing can get some of the mpgs back, but not all of them.
What the gearing on the truck now?
And definately a custom tune will help.

Lars:2thumbs:

Lars,
I have 4.56 gears in the truck now and I recovered a little mileage but it seems as though I am losing more miles to the tank since I replaced the fuel pump.

I have the Hypertech PP III that has taken the tire size and gears into account to adjust the speedo. I have noticed the difference with and without the programmer but from what I'm hearing, the Hypertech can't even touch the coat tails of the Gryphon.

Should I use the canned tunes or what other tunes should I get?

[Jackpine]

Lars,
I have 4.56 gears in the truck now and I recovered a little mileage but it seems as though I am losing more miles to the tank since I replaced the fuel pump.

I have the Hypertech PP III that has taken the tire size and gears into account to adjust the speedo. I have noticed the difference with and without the programmer but from what I'm hearing, the Hypertech can't even touch the coat tails of the Gryphon.

Should I use the canned tunes or what other tunes should I get?

I'm not Lars, but I take back what I said about the tow tune. The gearing you've got on your truck has made towing your loads easy, even with the big tires.

I think all you need is an 87 performance/economy tune. I think you'll probably see better mileage and performance compared to the Hypertech.

- Jack

[fordkindaguy]

sooo did taking the hypertech off do anything lol, i didnt see if you did or didnt

[88Racing]

I'm not Lars, but I take back what I said about the tow tune. The gearing you've got on your truck has made towing your loads easy, even with the big tires.

I think all you need is an 87 performance/economy tune. I think you'll probably see better mileage and performance compared to the Hypertech.

- Jack

X2 ^^^^what he said^^^^

Lars:2thumbs:

[88Racing]

sooo did taking the hypertech off do anything lol, i didnt see if you did or didnt

We will need to know this also!

Thanx

Lars

[RobbyMartin]

sooo did taking the hypertech off do anything lol, i didnt see if you did or didnt

I hope this will give us all an answer...About 4 weeks back I took the battery out for well over an hour to have it tested because I was having a different issue and I re-installed a new one. Being that the battery was out for over an hour, wouldn't that reset the computer and put the Hypertech tune back to stock? If yes, then the truck still had the lag/pause issue. If not, then I have to literally remove the tune and give it a shot. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try it anyway but the Hypertech takes an eternity to program.

How long does it take to re-program with the Gryphon?

[88Racing]

I hope this will give us all an answer...About 4 weeks back I took the battery out for well over an hour to have it tested because I was having a different issue and I re-installed a new one. Being that the battery was out for over an hour, wouldn't that reset the computer and put the Hypertech tune back to stock? If not, then I have to literally remove the tune and give it a shot. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try it anyway but the Hypertech takes an eternity to program. How long does it take to re-program with the Gryphon?

Ok
From my understanding of tuners/programmers is this.
Once the pcm is flashed with a new tune it cannot be removed unless reflashed.
I assume the Hypertech has the same proceedure as the gryphon.
So by removing the battery, the pcm's memory has not been altered due to the pcm's flash memory.
However the Keep Alive Memory resets and sends a p1000 code and the only way to get rid of this is by the drive cycle reset. This takes 50-100 miles.

The gryphon only takes about 5-10 min to program initially for canned tunes with custom options. The canned tunes are kinda similar to the hypertech tunes, they fit a lot of trucks. But when you get one with custom tunes only about 2 minutes.
Custom tunes are for you and your truck only. They don't work on other trucks that are the same as yours.

Lars

[RobbyMartin]

Ok
From my understanding of tuners/programmers is this.
Once the pcm is flashed with a new tune it cannot be removed unless reflashed.
I assume the Hypertech has the same proceedure as the gryphon.
So by removing the battery, the pcm's memory has not been altered due to the pcm's flash memory.
However the Keep Alive Memory resets and sends a p1000 code and the only way to get rid of this is by the drive cycle reset. This takes 50-100 miles.

The gryphon only takes about 5-10 min to program initially. But when you get one with custom tunes only about 2 minutes.

Lars


OK, so here's my next question. If I remove the Hypertech program manually and there is no pause/lag by no longer having it installed, will I be dealing with the same issue if I get the Gryphon? I will go crazy if I get the Gryphon and I still have the same issue with pause/lag.

[88Racing]

OK, so here's my next question. If I remove the Hypertech program manually and there is no pause/lag by no longer having it installed, will I be dealing with the same issue if I get the Gryphon? I will go crazy if I get the Gryphon and I still have the same issue with pause/lag.

There is a slight possiblitiy with the canned tunes due to they are for a lot of trucks.
But as of yet I have not heard of or read any throttle lag issues with a gryphon canned tunes on your year of truck.

Canned tunes come with the gryphon same as the edge evo's. Custom tunes are written by php and loaded into the gryphon via pegasus online at your house.

The custom tunes that Bill writes hardly ever need any touch ups.

Lars

[88Racing]

Read this also:
http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288

Lars

[Jackpine]

And Robby, I want to emphasize something that my not have been clear. When you PROGRAM the PCM with any device, you change the stored program in it. Disconnecting the battery does not have ANY effect on that stored program. Once the program is in the PCM, it's there till you rewrite it with another programming session. To put the PCM back to stock, you have to do it with the Hypertech, in fact you MUST do this before you try to program it with any different device, such as a Gryphon, Edge, X3 or whatever. If you don't set the PCM back to stock first, you will damage it by attempting to impress a new program on to it.

So, set your PCM to stock and see if it still has the throttle lag. If there is no lag at stock, why not try calling Hypertech to see if they have any ideas? They have an obligation to support you - make them do it.

As far as the Gryphon curing this problem, we can only tell you our experience. There are NO promises though. Remember the disclaimer: "Your mileage may vary". IF you get custom tunes in the Gryphon though, I know Bill can make adjustments to minimize or eliminate any problem areas.

I also want to correct something Lars said. I think he meant to say that the initial program only takes about 10-15 seconds to load, not minutes. Subsequent tunes don't take any longer either unless you activate the Custom Options menu - then it WILL take a couple minutes.

But, before you try a Gryphon, let Hypertech try to work your problem! I know Bill and Corey would give you the same advice. They don't like to see anyone spend money on things they don't need anymore than you do.

- Jack

[88Racing]

Jack thanks for the correction but what I was refering to is this.

When initially programming the custom options menu with canned tunes that this feature of the gryphon may take some time. Like with tire size and gear ratio and or shift points/firmness if so needed.

Lars

[Jackpine]

Jack thanks for the correction but what I was refering to is this.

When initially programming the custom options menu with canned tunes that this feature of the gryphon may take some time. Like with tire size and gear ratio and or shift points/firmness if so needed.

Lars

You're quite right, but I don't recall it taking 10-15 minutes, ever! However, it DOES have to "build" the "restore to stock" files the first time around, so it can take longer than subsequent tunes. I just didn't want anyone to get scared off thinking they were going to lose a big portion of their life watching the first programming session. :)

However, since there's only ONE first time, maybe I just remembered it wrong! My rapidly fading brain cells may have let me down again! :giggle:

- Jack

[RobbyMartin]

Thanks guys for all your input. You guys on this site have been awesome in helping with my questions...THANK YOU.

I realize in order to put a new tune I have to remove the old one. I have to sell my Hypertech after getting the Gryphon so I have to restore the tune back to stock for the tuner to tune a different vehicle.

What are the canned tunes for the Gryphon? Is the Gryphon exactly the same as the Edge but with better tunes? Have the same features? I have an intake (Airaid) and a 3" single exhaust. Will that work with canned tunes or will custom tunes be needed? I am trying to find a stock intake to do the Gotts mod and hopefully get cooler air so will that make a difference in what tune is needed?

Is the mounting pod the same as the Edge or is it a different design. I can't really tell from the picks I've seen online. They look exactly the same in some pics and different in other pics. I don't want it to intrude with the instrument panel opening.

[Jackpine]

Again, to clarify - you use the Hypertech to return your vehicle to stock before trying to program it with any other programmer.

The MAIN difference between the Gryphon and the Edge is in it's firmware, which allows the Gryphon to accept custom tunes. The Edge can only hold "canned" tunes.

In addition, Bill "recases" the device in a black case (which looks better to me) and he does "tweak" the canned tunes that are initially in it a bit, so they're better than the canned tunes in the Edge.

Your CAI probably doesn't play too well with canned tunes. This could be the cause of your problems with the Hypertech. The "Gotts" version will work fine with canned tunes. Your model year truck doesn't have the "lean running" problems that showed up with CAIs in 2004 and 2005 though.

Custom tunes will improve your performance with the Airaid.

The mounting pod for the 2002 model Gryphon (and Edge) is black, and is somewhat different than the one used for later models, I believe. For a while, they used it through 2006, and I still have one of the old ones (in addition to the newer design). Both work fine and don't interfere with anything in the dash.

- Jack

[RobbyMartin]

One more question...

I had a BBK 75mm throttle body installed and then recently removed and I feel no difference in the way the truck runs or responds. After getting the Gryphon, will my truck benefit from it or will it run the same? I am thinking of selling it if it makes no difference but if it will help improve the Gryphons tune then I want to keep it. If it will help the performance, will it help or hurt my mileage?

Again guys, thanks a million for your help! I'm glad I heard about PHP.

[Jackpine]

One more question...

I had a BBK 75mm throttle body installed and then recently removed and I feel no difference in the way the truck runs or responds. After getting the Gryphon, will my truck benefit from it or will it run the same? I am thinking of selling it if it makes no difference but if it will help improve the Gryphons tune then I want to keep it. If it will help the performance, will it help or hurt my mileage?

Again guys, thanks a million for your help! I'm glad I heard about PHP.

I've never heard anyone talk about this component before you. So, I don't really have any ideas here. I think this is a question that's better directed to Bill Cohron. I'd think it WOULD effect the tune, but you don't seem to be seeing any effect. :shrug:

- Jack

[RobbyMartin]

I've never heard anyone talk about this component before you. So, I don't really have any ideas here. I think this is a question that's better directed to Bill Cohron. I'd think it WOULD effect the tune, but you don't seem to be seeing any effect. :shrug:

- Jack

I don't see many people getting significant gains with a CAI unless its tuned for one so I was wondering if its the same for larger throttle bodies.

And I am trying to read up about underdrive pulleys but I haven't read anywhere if a 2 pulley or 3 pulley set is better for my truck (2002 w/4.6L).

[88Racing]

I don't see many people getting significant gains with a CAI unless its tuned for one so I was wondering if its the same for larger throttle bodies.

And I am trying to read up about underdrive pulleys but I haven't read anywhere if a 2 pulley or 3 pulley set is better for my truck (2002 w/4.6L).

My opinion on those intakes is this
the people who advertise them as power gaining add on should be fired.
Yes it moves the product but no they don't show the customer the whole picture.
Been involved with HD's to much lately but here's a parallel.
HD sells a kit.
It includes a bigger TB
but wait there more!
A bigger intake.
Bigger injectors.
Different cams.
Different heads.
Different pushrods.
And for extra cash a dyno run.

Do you see the big picture now?

[RobbyMartin]

My opinion on those intakes is this
the people who advertise them as power gaining add on should be fired.
Yes it moves the product but no they don't show the customer the whole picture.
Been involved with HD's to much lately but here's a parallel.
HD sells a kit.
It includes a bigger TB
but wait there more!
A bigger intake.
Bigger injectors.
Different cams.
Different heads.
Different pushrods.
And for extra cash a dyno run.

Do you see the big picture now?

I've read so much that I'm confused. I've read that bigger intakes and larger throttle bodies are useless without forced air induction. Would you find this to be true?
I've read that the Gotts mod is just as good as the other. Then I thought I understood that Bill could write a tune that would compliment an aftermarket intake along with any engine mods someone may have. I guess my question is if keeping my Airaid intake with a custom tune would be better than the stock intake with the Gotts mod...or visa versa? And would my BBK 75mm TB be beneficial with a tune or would the stock TB be just as good? I don't want to hold onto to things aftermarket parts if they are not anymore beneficial than the stock parts.:shrug:

[88Racing]

I guess what I was trying to say was that the TB needs other things to make it work better than just a tune and a cai.
The gryphon will give you truck some more power and so will the cai. The gryphon and cai do this together.
In order to get the bigger TB to make more power you will need an intake, cams, and possibly injectors.
Forced air is the way I would go if I had big pockets.

Lars

[fordkindaguy]

I have an 02 4.6L and did notice some power gain but it could be because i also have a flowmaster cat back which allows a little better flow. The gryphon will tune your truck for the extra air amount coming in so it can put in more gas, more air+more gas= more fun

[RobbyMartin]

I have an 02 4.6L and did notice some power gain but it could be because i also have a flowmaster cat back which allows a little better flow. The gryphon will tune your truck for the extra air amount coming in so it can put in more gas, more air+more gas= more fun


I like the more fun part but I really don't like the more gas I'll be using. I think I'll keek the stock intake and TB and sell off the aftermarket parts. I'm hearing good things about pulleys so I'm going to add those.

[88Racing]

Just so there is no confusion. Intakes in my world are the part that bolts to the heads. Other people call them intake manifolds.
Now Cold Air Intakes that come before the TB, I and others just call them cai.

[Jackpine]

I like the more fun part but I really don't like the more gas I'll be using. I think I'll keek the stock intake and TB and sell off the aftermarket parts. I'm hearing good things about pulleys so I'm going to add those.

I am 100% sure I got a gas mileage boost from doing the "gotts" style mod to the stock intake. I can't really explain why this should be except that possibly I get a better A/F mixture at near WOT which in turn gives me better power shortening the time I have to be in that state?

Anyway, I know before the intake mod, I could get 15.5 mpg at 55-60 mph. Anything faster and the mileage dropped. Now I get 15.5 at 70-75, and am above 16.0 at 55-60.

- Jack

[fordkindaguy]

depends on how you drive, it only will pull in more gas if you're on wot otherwise i believe people are claiming higher gas mileage due to changing standard shift points and that good stuff:yesnod:

[Power Hungry]

I didn't see if it was mentioned, but one thing that is a common problem is a moderately lean condition caused by using a CAI in conjunction with Programmer that wasn't set up for the inherent lean condition the CAI will normally cause. This results in poor throttle response and poor low RPM power. The canned tuning on the Gryphon will likely cause the same problems until you go with some custom tuning.

[88Racing]

I didn't see if it was mentioned, but one thing that is a common problem is a moderately lean condition caused by using a CAI in conjunction with Programmer that wasn't set up for the inherent lean condition the CAI will normally cause. This results in poor throttle response and poor low RPM power. The canned tuning on the Gryphon will likely cause the same problems until you go with some custom tuning.

I wasn't going to mention the "blanket response" for the cai being lean due to the year of vehicle. But it most definately could be possible. The other thing is a "small" vacuum leak.

To the OP does the idle dip when brakes applied?

Lars

[RobbyMartin]

I wasn't going to mention the "blanket response" for the cai being lean due to the year of vehicle. But it most definately could be possible. The other thing is a "small" vacuum leak.

To the OP does the idle dip when brakes applied?

Lars


No idle dip at all. Normal idle in all situations.

I've heard before that CAI weren't good with programmers.

[RobbyMartin]

I didn't see if it was mentioned, but one thing that is a common problem is a moderately lean condition caused by using a CAI in conjunction with Programmer that wasn't set up for the inherent lean condition the CAI will normally cause. This results in poor throttle response and poor low RPM power. The canned tuning on the Gryphon will likely cause the same problems until you go with some custom tuning.

Bill, I'm glad you responded. Thanks! I've heard before about the CAI/Programmer combo not working well. I have little low end/low RPM power. Power in the middle and higher RPM range is good for the 4.6L except the lag when it downshifts for passing.

Questions...I'm going to purchase the Gryphon but I'd like to know what would be best with a custom tune for my '02 4.6L. A Gotts intake mod or the Airaid intake I currently have installed? I live in HOT Southern California so I don't know if that makes a difference with your tunes. Stock TB or a BBK 75mm TB that I also currently have (not installed)? I'm also installing underdrive pulleys before I input to tune so also consider that.

[Power Hungry]

On the F-150, the Gott's/Snorkel mod seems to work just as well as any commercial CAI kits. At least dyno results haven't indicated any appreciable difference. Not that there's really anything negative about the CAI so if you've got one already it's fine.

Newer trucks haven't seen any benefit to running a throttle body, but older trucks often see a moderate gain in mid to upper RPM performance in there area of about 5 to 8 HP.

Underdrive pulleys will require a small idle change (usually 50 RPM or so) to help keep the alternator charging correctly at idle.

In regards to air/fuel ratio and performance, peak torque and peak HP occur at different ratios with torque coming in about 11.25:1 to 11.6:1 and HP coming in around 12.25:1. If the fuel curves aren't correctly adjusted to meet the demands for the specific load/RPM, performance can suffer significantly.

I hope this makes sense.

[RobbyMartin]

In regards to air/fuel ratio and performance, peak torque and peak HP occur at different ratios with torque coming in about 11.25:1 to 11.6:1 and HP coming in around 12.25:1. If the fuel curves aren't correctly adjusted to meet the demands for the specific load/RPM, performance can suffer significantly.

I hope this makes sense.[/QUOTE]

This is the only part I didn't comprehend but not sure that I need to. I just want you to do your MAGIC so I can pop a wheelie...haha, just kidding.

Thanks for the input. I know what I'm going to do as far as the mods go .