Too Much Fuel, Too Soon? And Other ???

[theSLEEPER]

Just wondering.

Without CP testing equiptment, how would you know when it was too much fuel?

Let's say, Stg. 2's, with known good injectors and nozzles, and something like a 38R.

Wouldn't the sound be enough to tell you something is wrong? I know that I can hear the difference in SOI or "timing" when switching tunes.

Would severely advanced "timing" create a better running motor? Or would it just cause excessive heat?

What about excessive ICP along with excessive "timing"?

Does increased ICP create advanced timing? All else equal.

What about IDM mods?

I'm sorry, the title may not be fitting for my questions, but I'm trying to gather all I can as soon as I can.

Could you create a more quiet and less smokey running motor by delaying SOI and calling for less fuel? Would that cause excessive lag?

I guess this is all more "theory" and not pertaining to Minotaur, so if it needs to be moved...

Thank ya'll in advance!!!
Jeret

[soutthpaw]

You are in the right place for the questions you asked... all great questions by the way. do read through all the other threads in the minotaur forum as some of this has been addressed... Im going to bed now but I am sure Cody will jump in with some answers..

[cleatus12r]

Just wondering.

Without CP testing equiptment, how would you know when it was too much fuel? By ear. Seriously. The way the truck sounds and feels is a very good indication of what is going on. Is it perfect? Hardly. The problem with actual combustion pressure (CP) equipment is that it is a pain to install....especially on a 7.3L. Besides, without knowing what to look for (not to mention what else to hook up), most folks out there would have a worthless piece of expensive equipment sitting on the shelf. The amount of fuel isn't nearly as detrimental as WHEN the fuel gets there.

Let's say, Stg. 2's, with known good injectors and nozzles, and something like a 38R. It seems to me that "Stage 2" injectors are usually a recipe for broken engines. Why? My guess is that a lot of folks view them as glorified stockers when they are hardly that at all. "St. 2" injectors are capable of moving a lot of fuel due to the nozzle size but lack the injection volume (CC) to do much good for a long injection event. They empty quickly.

Wouldn't the sound be enough to tell you something is wrong? I know that I can hear the difference in SOI or "timing" when switching tunes. Sometimes. Without placing myself in a hairy situation, I have seen differences in various peoples' tuning. Is there a difference, you bet...and usually it's quite different between different tuners. Going by sound alone can be revealing.

Would severely advanced "timing" create a better running motor? Or would it just cause excessive heat? Believe it or not, diesels are similar to gassers in this respect. A lot of SOI advance is a good thing....to a point. Once the piston starts it's huge push before the crankshaft throw has passed TDC, it becomes bad. Same as a gasser. However, the hotter combustion temperatures aren't Mother Nature's best friend (according to the EPA nazi brigade).

What about excessive ICP along with excessive "timing"?

Does increased ICP create advanced timing? All else equal.I'll attempt these two at once. It gets hairy here since increased ICP DOES create a pseudo-advancing effect by injecting more fuel in a shorter amount of time. More fuel, shorter amount of time, and all occuring earlier in the pre-power stroke cycle.

What about IDM mods? Same thing...injector opens sooner by a few microseconds.

I'm sorry, the title may not be fitting for my questions, but I'm trying to gather all I can as soon as I can.

Could you create a more quiet and less smokey running motor by delaying SOI and calling for less fuel? Would that cause excessive lag?

I guess this is all more "theory" and not pertaining to Minotaur, so if it needs to be moved...

Thank ya'll in advance!!!
Jeret


I tried here....it's abbreviated since I should be working right now.

[theSLEEPER]

Thanks Cody! That's awesome! LOTS of help! :2thumbs:

I'll have more questions soon. I am really excited about learning. And the more I learn, the more I want to get the Minotaur package so I can create my own tunes...

Does Blowby do all of his own tuning?

[cleatus12r]

Does Blowby do all of his own tuning?

Yep. He certainly does.

[theSLEEPER]

That's awesome. I wish this forum was a little more active...

[cleatus12r]

At some times I do as well. It stays pretty tame around here though with just a few folks....it's not always a giant argument (think PSN).

[theSLEEPER]

At some times I do as well. It stays pretty tame around here though with just a few folks....it's not always a giant argument (think PSN).
Well, hopefully I'll be able to give input one day. Instead of just questions.

And yeah, I love PSN but the attacks and bickering get old...

[theSLEEPER]

Does anyone know about what a stocker puts out in CC's per each shot at it's max?

What do ya'll feel like a good ICP max is at WOT on a stock injectored motor with stock oil?

I've put a 10K mod on top of my chip once before when I was running an extremely laggy BBW turbo, and it seemed to help the spooling a good bit.

Does anyone know how to wire up a potentiometer into the ICP and which one to use? I'd like to wire it with a switch so that I don't have to run it all of the time, but I feel like there's a little bit to be gained with a slightly increased ICP over what I have now...

A scanner will not read ICP correctly if I have a 10K in there. Correct? I'd have to check it with a mech. gauge right?

[cleatus12r]

Does anyone know about what a stocker puts out in CC's per each shot at it's max?

What do ya'll feel like a good ICP max is at WOT on a stock injectored motor with stock oil? 2800-3000 PSI max.

I've put a 10K mod on top of my chip once before when I was running an extremely laggy BBW turbo, and it seemed to help the spooling a good bit. Yep. That's about normal. The higher injection pressure at low RPM will help spool the turbocharger by increasing EGT from a more complete burn.

Does anyone know how to wire up a potentiometer into the ICP and which one to use? I'd like to wire it with a switch so that I don't have to run it all of the time, but I feel like there's a little bit to be gained with a slightly increased ICP over what I have now... Yes. I will attach two pictures that I drew up for a guy over at the Nation who had some ICP Mod concerns.

A scanner will not read ICP correctly if I have a 10K in there. Correct? I'd have to check it with a mech. gauge right? The scanner WILL show the desired pressure (and what it thinks is correct), but it will actually be higher than what is shown on the scan tool. You will need a gauge to see what is actually happening. The only differences you'll notice on the scanner is the IPR duty cycle will be higher when the ICP Mod is active.

These are simple ICP mods. The "series" one has become the most popular and common resistances are 10k-20K ohms. This WILL cause problems with aftermarket tuning because you WILL run out of high pressure oil if you have a stock system now.

Don't laugh at the pictures as I only donated about 5 minutes of my time in MS Paint.

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/seriesICP.jpg

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/parallelICP.jpg

[theSLEEPER]

Hey Cody. Thanks for the info, but I was thinking more along the lines of something like a variable resistor, that I can use to dial in my ICP.

I also dont really want to fool with the IVS, just a simple on/off switch would be fine...

Have you ever messed with a potentiometer? I just need to figure out how to wire it up to work like a variable 10K mod.

[cleatus12r]

Actually, a couple years back I actually made a couple dozen "Low-End Menders" that were just that. They did have an IVS input but they also had a toggle switch to turn them on and off.

I used a 5K ohm resistor in series with a 5K-10K potentiometer that was user-adjustable.

I'll draw up a schematic tonight for you.

[theSLEEPER]

:2thumbs:
Wow! Thanks Cody! You're the man! I'm excited. I can't wait to get my .84 exhaust housing machined and give the BBW another try with some help spooling...

Do you know if there's a way to tune for lag? I always assumed a little extra fuel, ICP, and timing, even on stock injectors, could help to quickly spool a turbo that may be a little too large/laggy...

Thanks again! You made my day!
:cheesy smile:

[cleatus12r]

As promised. No relay, no IVS influence.


http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/VariableICP.jpg

[theSLEEPER]

Sorry to be a pain. But which color is to the PCM? And just for my own mental library, what do the other two wires go to?

[cleatus12r]

Sorry to be a pain. But which color is to the PCM? And just for my own mental library, what do the other two wires go to?


Blue/Red (or Green) out of ICP sensor to PCM. (Sensor Return)

Brown 5V Reference (VREF)

Gray/Red Sensor Ground (Signal Return)


Just for shiggles, there is another ICP Mod that uses a resistor in parallel with the ICP sensor that went between the blue wire and the gray wire. However, the LOWER the resistance in that setup, the HIGHER the ICP would actually be.

[theSLEEPER]

Just for shiggles, there is another ICP Mod that uses a resistor in parallel with the ICP sensor that went between the blue wire and the gray wire. However, the LOWER the resistance in that setup, the HIGHER the ICP would actually be.

That's the one I use to run. The one that was in between the two wires on the ICP sensor.

[theSLEEPER]

Ummm... I think I cut the wrong wire... I wired into a greyish-yellow w/ red stripe.........

So... I need to mend that wire and go to the blue/red(or green) wire? I was wondering what was going on... Seemed to me like I was turning the ICP DOWN... The truck would start getting really quiet, and at idle, it would "chug" or just die... Would this be an effective way to LOWER the icp from what is being called for? Seemed like a good option for a drive through tune... If I had the pot just right, and hit the switch, the motor would get really quiet , but not die...

[907DAVE]

Hmmm......



http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt274/907dave9/121869362.gif



Looks like you need to tap into the wire with the Dark Blue with Light Green tracer.

[theSLEEPER]

I'd really like to figure out if I'm actually reducing my ICP. Because that would be cool too!

[907DAVE]

Without a mechanical gauge on it there would be no way to know for sure. They way you describe it it sounds like you are dropping ICP, that is kinda cool, poor mans wisper mode.:D

[theSLEEPER]

Does Cody come here much anymore?

[907DAVE]

Yeah, he is usually answering my seemingly endless questions.:crazy:

[cleatus12r]

Sorry.

I'm not avoiding anyone or trying to ignore. I've got a potential "big fish to fry" and I've been working on my old 73 F100 hot rod (91 FI 460/E4OD install) trying to get it up and running quickly (while cleanly).

[theSLEEPER]

Real quick... Did I tap into the wrong wire? What does that one do? And what would increasing the resisitance in it do?

[cleatus12r]

It would effectively cut the voltage drop across the sensor. It may or may not cause problems.....I don't know what resistance you'd have to use right off hand.

Your best bet would be to repair the wire you cut and cut the correct (blue/green) wire to splice into. At least that way, you'd know that it was working the way it should.

[theSLEEPER]

Thanks Cody! I got it all fixed! It's freakin awesome! Is there any possible permanent ill effects of running too much ICP?

[cleatus12r]

Too much all the time?

Well, if you factor in that most all ICP-fooling devices wear out the HPOP prematurely, then yes, too much ICP is a bad thing. Can you hurt anything? Nah, the HPOP has a blow-off at about 4000 PSI.

[theSLEEPER]

Hey Cody, are those diagrams gone forever? If so, they're saved on my home PC, jw if you have them handy?