Start of Injection Delay

[cleatus12r]

Here's a serious question, Bill.

The Start of Injection Delay has me a bit confused lately. For those that don't know, I started with Sniper Delta Force tuning software. Although it's a good tool, I picked up some...uh...."bad habits" with it because all I knew about fuel-related "tuning" (I use that word loosely.) was the injector pulse width map (called "table" in their software) and all I had to do was increase it in certain ICP ranges....VOILA! That's how THEY did it, so that's how I did it.

Well, tuning for EOT makes 150% more sense since just increasing the injector on-time kind of makes for excess fuel no matter if it's -50 or 300 degrees.

The injector delay is confusing to me. I wish I knew what the units were that I am changing (to somewhat mirror yours Bill because I trust what you're doing is right) depending on EOT and fuel rates. The other tuning I see has wildly fluctuating data compared to yours and some has no compensation whatsoever.


The SOI Delay Map in Delta Force (Farce??) is called "Injection Timing Adder for ICP vs. EOT" and the values given in the table are NOT related to the values in Minotaur's table. For reference, searching came up with this post:
http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9166&postcount=37

What exactly IS the SOI Delay Map, why is it there, and how do you determine what values should be input?

Thanks for the help!

[cleatus12r]

The more reading and research I have done leads me to believe that the increased values I am seeing in aftermarket tuning shows an increase in delay. The PCM may then use these values to advance the SOI farther than the stock values in this map. On the other hand, the values of less than "1" will cause the PCM to calculate a later SOI than with the increased values that many happen to run.

If I'm not overstepping my bounds here, I'd like to ask why, when your tunes and the factory are decreasing the SOI delay value at higher ICP (which is understandable), a different tuner happens to be increasing his values.

There is a HUGE discrepancy between stock and higher HP tunes (which as the HP level goes up, so does the SOI delay). Again, I ask why?

Is there a problem with leaving the SOI Delay map with its stock values when tuning all other fuel/timing maps? By my thinking, it seems safer.

[Power Hungry]

Cody,

The detailed explanation for this is something more involved than my fingers actually have time for. The short explanation is that it is delay in milliseconds between the time the injector solenoid is energized and the time that fuel actually starts to spray out of the injector. If you compare Singles vs. Splits, you'll notice about a .2ms difference in this table which accounts for (among other things) the pilot shot. This is also why the table drops off the higher the ICP goes. More pressure, less delay. Being a time-based table, the higher the RPM, the more crank angle for a given time period.

When you have time, give me a shout and I'll be happy to get into a bit more detail.

Laterz.

[cleatus12r]

That's what I was thinking.....somehow I was drawn to the conclusion that the table was defined in ms but had no way to know.

But I'll call you and get some more information.

Actually, I will be home all day today because I'm back to a 4-day work week. I have to drive to town to pick up a few more things for this 7.3L IDI that I rebuilt for a guy (hoping to have it running today) and I will be back in time to call. Expect a call today between 1-2 PM your time.

[cleatus12r]

It was great talking to you again Bill. Somehow I always feel kind of special when we talk like old friends (who aren't really that old and who have never met). :howdy: I'm getting excited since we're down to less than a month before SEMA. It'll be nice to put person-to-person faces with you and Corey's names. :cool:

In the grand scheme of things, it was nice of you to take the time to 'splain to me what that map does and how it relates to SOI.

Thanks a million!

[Power Hungry]

As Corey will tell you... "Bill has never met a stranger." I've always talked to people like old friends. Some may find that a bit unprofessional, but I think it's just a nice way to be. In the hustle and bustle world of today, people just don't seem to take the time to actually talk to people anymore. Of course, being a chatterbox has its drawbacks sometimes and I frequently have Corey reminding me that I have work to do. :whistle:

Corey and I are quite excited to be seeing you guys (Jack and Janet included) in Vegas and are glad that we could help out. We're gonna have a blast for sure. :2thumbs:

Anyway, if there's anything else I can help with or any questions I can answer, I'm happy to make myself available.

Take care.

[907DAVE]

So basically the higher the number(ms?) the more advanced the SOI will be? Or am I backwards, seems like the higher the delay more advanced timing is needed to compensate for it? :shrug:

[cleatus12r]

Dave,


Bill and I had a discussion a few months ago about SOI Delay and there's a reason he wanted to talk me through it on the phone....it's complicated but not really at the same time.

It's Ford's way of compensating for the mechanical and electrical delays in the injectors at different oil temperatures and injection pressures.

The reason it makes sense to change this map is because for regular injection timing, you've simply got a map based on RPM and MFD. That's ok but there is no temperature compensation for the injection timing (save for the SOI vs. EOT but that's a fixed adder) except for the SOI Delay map.

The higher the value, the more the PCM is going to compensate and the more advance you'll see. It is time based (in milliseconds) so there is an obvious injection timing advance going on at higher RPM since time is fixed and RPM is not. See where I'm going with this?

[907DAVE]

Just came back here to re-read this thread and I think there is a few posts that are missing.

For an "all out" program would you be better off setting this at a low number across the board?

Like the actual delay at full temp, which I guess will be around or less than 1ms. Of course the program would ONLY be used at full operating temp.Would this add a timing safety net?

[cleatus12r]

Just came back here to re-read this thread and I think there is a few posts that are missing.

For an "all out" program would you be better off setting this at a low number across the board?

Like the actual delay at full temp, which I guess will be around or less than 1ms. Of course the program would ONLY be used at full operating temp.Would this add a timing safety net?

Personally for my own programming I usually only alter this map by a half a millisecond or so at the most....and it's never at the higher ICP levels (high load).

You will see that most of the time in aftermarket tuning, the higher the ICP, the higher the delay is set. There are a couple of reasons for this, the biggest being that the amount of fuel being injected is higher for a higher injection pressure. By programming in an advanced SOI based on load and RPM (basically higher ICP and higher RPM), the burn is hopefully initiated sooner and it keeps the fuel from burning too much past TDC.

The nice thing about the delay map is that it is based on EOT. My programming will leave the stock delay at low temperatures (below about 120F) and at high temperatures (above about 240F). I usually incorporate the same temperature changes in the PW multiplier map too.

If you're worried about any effects due to a time-based SOI map, then it's best to leave the map alone.

[907DAVE]

I just had another random thought pop into my head. :notallthere:

With large injectors with big nozzles fuel is able to be delivered faster, meaning more fuel in less time, regardless of RPM's and possibly EOT and ICP.

If you were to adjust for this faster delivery rate (less delay) would it be better to use this map to do it, since it is a time based map? Just an "across the board" change to accommodate for the big, fast nozzles.

I am aware this is no where close to the only change needed with large injectors.

What am I missing, its early and I haven't had my coffee yet.

[cleatus12r]

I just had another random thought pop into my head. :notallthere:

With large injectors with big nozzles fuel is able to be delivered faster, meaning more fuel in less time, regardless of RPM's and possibly EOT and ICP.

If you were to adjust for this faster delivery rate (less delay) would it be better to use this map to do it, since it is a time based map? Just an "across the board" change to accommodate for the big, fast nozzles.

I am aware this is no where close to the only change needed with large injectors.

What am I missing, its early and I haven't had my coffee yet.

Sorry I haven't been around to put some input in, Dave. I haven't been in the right frame of mind (divorce stuff).

It certainly isn't a bad idea that you have there. By lowering the values in the SOI Delay map, the PCM will command less calculated SOI advance. However, I don't think that it would be the way that I would do it. (I don't know exactly how yet since I've never tuned for aftermarket injectors though. :hmmm: )

Your actual SOI isn't going to change much, if my thinking is right (and I am starting with a little 7 and Sprite right now). The SOI is still going to have to happen at a somewhat "normal" time but the entire quantity of fuel has to be dragged out over a longer period instead of all before TDC. I think that the Delay should be altered slightly but only to keep the injector from emptying far too early. Did I just contradict myself there? :doh:

Bill would know, he's tuned for a lot of aftermarket injectors.


OH BIIIIiiiiillllllll!! :hehe:

[907DAVE]

Dang man.........sorry to hear that.

I am just trying to wrap my head around all these different maps and how they work with each other so maybe some day I will actually know what I am doing.:hehe:

Way off topic but what would be the point of increasing the MFD map to over 100 at WOT?

What do these numbers actually represent?






Ohh boy........7 on 7.....that stuff will sneak up on you.......lots of stories started with that drink.:whistle1:

[cleatus12r]

Way off topic but what would be the point of increasing the MFD map to over 100 at WOT? To me, it appears to be an easy way to indirectly increase the injector pulse width above and beyond what is commanded in the multiplier map. For instance, if your max MFD is 100 and it gets you a certain PW at a certain RPM/ICP, then increasing the MFD to 110 or higher will allow the PCM to calculate (using RPM/ICP) what the new, higher pulse width should be. It's a way to get the popping and stuttering that you hear in a lot of sled pulling videos too.

What do these numbers actually represent? The MFD map represents mg/stroke per injection event. It's a direct quantity.


Ohh boy........7 on 7.....that stuff will sneak up on you.......lots of stories started with that drink.:whistle1: You're telling me....I made 6 of them last night and drank them in about a half an hour. I slept good last night. I'd been awake for 31 hours since I couldn't sleep the night before.

Hope this info helps a bit.

[907DAVE]

The SOI is still going to have to happen at a somewhat "normal" time but the entire quantity of fuel has to be dragged out over a longer period instead of all before TDC.

I have been thinking about this statement a little and am confused about how this can be done.

The only way that I think this can be accomplished would be by dropping ICP to slow the rate of injection, but then you are delaying actual SOI indirectly, also this seems like a backwards way of doing things and might hurt performance/ economy.

Or am I backwards here.:crazy:

[cleatus12r]

http://actnormal.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/fashion-diva.jpg

DID I DO THAT?

Whoa. I guess I need to reread my posts when I type them (or knock of the drinking and thinking at the same time).

Your SOI is going to have to be quite a bit later than normal....not around the same time because the injector is obviously going to get out the desired amount quicker. My bad.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
http://wallstreetexaminer.com/blogs/winter/wp-content/uploads/oz.jpg

[907DAVE]

:smiley_roll1: You are too funny!

Your post seemed to make sense to me, I just didn't understand how I was going to make it happen.

[GTS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 907dave
Way off topic but what would be the point of increasing the MFD map to over 100 at WOT? To me, it appears to be an easy way to indirectly increase the injector pulse width above and beyond what is commanded in the multiplier map. For instance, if your max MFD is 100 and it gets you a certain PW at a certain RPM/ICP, then increasing the MFD to 110 or higher will allow the PCM to calculate (using RPM/ICP) what the new, higher pulse width should be. It's a way to get the popping and stuttering that you hear in a lot of sled pulling videos too.

What do these numbers actually represent? The MFD map represents mg/stroke per injection event. It's a direct quantity.




OK so this brings up a question or two. So you say the MFD map represents actual MG/Stroke. We all know that that can vary hugely depending on the injector and nozzle. I always assumed being it seems like this is a 0-100 scale that it was more of a percentage scale 100 being max MFD. So what is the max MFD that is recognized? I noticed when running AE on my current tunes I was only hitting a max of about 80 MFD. I was going to start by modifying the MFD to come in to 100 at the max TPP voltage that I’m seeing. But if the scale goes above 100 how far could or should a guy go with it? Or does it really continue to ask for more fuel past 100?

[cleatus12r]

OK so this brings up a question or two. So you say the MFD map represents actual MG/Stroke. We all know that that can vary hugely depending on the injector and nozzle. I always assumed being it seems like this is a 0-100 scale that it was more of a percentage scale 100 being max MFD. So what is the max MFD that is recognized? I noticed when running AE on my current tunes I was only hitting a max of about 80 MFD. I was going to start by modifying the MFD to come in to 100 at the max TPP voltage that I’m seeing. But if the scale goes above 100 how far could or should a guy go with it? Or does it really continue to ask for more fuel past 100?

Concerning your part in bold and red:

Look at your low boost fuel map (it may have been renamed something like "fuel limit for boost" in your definition). That map is an actual MFD limiter.

[GTS]

Low boost fuel map is maxed out at 100 across the entire map as well is the same map for altitude. I guess if this map is a "limiter" then that would kind of answer my other questions about 100 being the top of the MFD scale. So that being said It would appear that increasing the MFD on the other maps as mentioned above would not do anything as it's being limited to 100 on this map unless you raised it higher on this map as well. I guess the question still stands though that if you incrase MFD above 100 does the PCM recognize that and will it actually ask for more fuel?

[cleatus12r]

This was before I looked at the type of truck you were driving.....there are parameters that dictate maximum MFD as well.

[GTS]

OK so my MFD in the parameters is set to 100. This brings up another question. If you have something set in the parameters such as the MFD, will that show up on the maps? So if you have MFD set at 80 will the maps limit at 80? Or will the maps go to what ever value you set them at and stay there but the parameter will just override it once the program is in the truck?