battery drain?

[RGSMDNR]

Could the programmer be drawing current while the truck is turned off? I had a dead battery the other day and cant figure out what could be causing the draw.

thx

[bustintheirazz]

Correct me if I am wrong, but once you turn the vehicle off or remove the key, the gryphon is not pulling anypower, unless you turn to the on position.

[JWBFX4]

Yes it does pull current with the truck off. I can't find the thread around here right now that talks about it but I remember "Jack" had measured the current it draws and its in a thread around here somewhere.

[JWBFX4]

http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327

This thread talks about it pretty good. Post #6

[Jackpine]

http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327

This thread talks about it pretty good. Post #6

And, that thread is accurate for my truck. I have not had a single problem since using the battery tender whenever the truck is sitting in my garage.

Interestingly, I always find I have to run the battery tender (max charging current 1.25 A) about 8-10 hours after driving the truck to bring the battery to a full charge. And, my alternator supplies around 13.9-14.1 Volts when I'm driving. So, even after a full day of driving, the battery seems to be (according to the way the "tender" works, at about an 80% charge level.

I cannot explain this, and it doesn't make any sense to me. It's just the way things are.

- Jack

[Longshot270]

Jack, I bet that the numbers your getting have something to do with the Voltage=Amps/Resistance formula. If the battery tender uses clamps to connect to the battery then it will read more resistance than the vehicle(because the vehicle has been bolted in since day 1). More resistance is going to make the voltage look lower without any higher amps. Could be wrong but it sounded good when it ran through my head. :thumbs up yellow:

[RGSMDNR]

ahh ok, thats good to know. Would it matter if the PCM was programmed or stock mode? can someone explain why it draws current while the truck is off?

[Longshot270]

Im not sure having the PCM progarammed would make a difference on the electrical draw. As far as I know the small amount of draw is what lets the computer remember what the latest amounts of data there are. You know when you unplug the battery that you usually lose the radio presets and stuff?(my truck doesn't do it but my dad's does) I think one of the things it remembers is the last driving conditions, I've noticed that some vehicles will throw P1000(?) codes after being reprogrammed or having the battery unplugged. I also think its the same on the gryphon, that small amount of draw lets the programmer remember stuff like your averge MPG and top speeds, that kind of stuff. This part Im not so sure about :shrug:

[88Racing]

Oh let's see here?
Some examples of current draw while vehicle is off.

KAM. Keep Alive Memory
Security. PATS system.
Remote Start.
Radio memory including clock.
Shut down sequencing procedures when vehicle is turned off.

A battery tender directly bolted to the post clamps may be the best way to combat losses while the truck is sitting. Especially like my garage queen. But if your truck is a daily driver I wouldn't worry about it.

Lars

[Jackpine]

Jack, I bet that the numbers your getting have something to do with the Voltage=Amps/Resistance formula. If the battery tender uses clamps to connect to the battery then it will read more resistance than the vehicle(because the vehicle has been bolted in since day 1). More resistance is going to make the voltage look lower without any higher amps. Could be wrong but it sounded good when it ran through my head. :thumbs up yellow:

Longshot - we MAY be talking about two different things. The voltage and amperage numbers I quoted in the other post are with a good digital multimeter. The parasitic draw in my truck is definitely 0.05 amps (50 ma) after the truck has been sitting in a "quiet" state - doors closed, everything shutdown for at least one hour. To this list of what Lars posted for current draw, I also have memory for the pedals and seats and memory for the climate control temperature. The King Ranch also has the door open keypad that has to be alive to accept key input and all our trucks probably have a powered receiver to accept signals from the key fob for remote door unlock.

In this post, the 13.9-14.1 volts are being displayed on the Gryphon with the engine running and this seems a pretty normal regulated charging voltage from the alternator.

What I found puzzling, is the state of the battery after driving. I expected it to be at or near a full charge state. But, I think I just figured out why that may not be so. My headlights have the "auto-on" feature, so when I drive into the garage, they come on. They stay on for about 20 seconds after I shutdown too, as do the interior lights after I get out an close the doors. There seems to be some other, less obvious circuits that are alive too, for about 5 minutes, until the battery saver relay opens. This puts a fairly heavy draw on the battery.

By the time I get my battery tender hooked up, it takes about 6-8 hours to reach the fully charged state (since it uses a very low charging current to keep from "boiling" the battery - about 0.2 Amps) when the battery is above an 80% charge state. If I simply unplug the battery tender and then plug it back in again, its operation indicates a full charge within a very short time, since there was no big drain while it was disconnected.

The 0.05 Amp draw from the Gryphon (when it's plugged in) was confirmed with Bill. I know I have a total parasitic draw of 0.1 amps when the Gryphon is installed.

Finally, as Lars said, the Battery Tender comes with a "permanent" plug in connection you can attach to the screw terminals of the battery posts. This makes it simple to use.

- Jack

[Longshot270]

Oh oops, I meant the battery charger was reading low, your older post about parasitic draw sounds good to me. I bought the base model XL with no bells or wistles so I was thinking in terms of my truck. But I'm not so sure the extra bells and whistles would draw 80% if your battery in a short amount of time. I've run my truck's stereo plus a pair of 12 inch subwoofers for over 4 hours at full power and only got knocked down to about 9-10 volts. How many CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) is your battery? If I go with my 540 CCA down to 80%, that would be a loss of 108 amps and drop your battery down to something like 10 or 11 volts. Did I mess up on my math somewhere or use wrong numbers? If you left your lights on for a good while I'd expect to see something like that but it sounds like you hook the battery tender fairly soon after parking. I am pretty sure a single 55 watt bulb is usually around 4-5 amps. We must be arguing somewhere but I'm not sure over what. :nerd::hehe:

Question: What is the final voltage after the charger considers the battery to be at 100%?

[Jackpine]

Oh oops, I meant the battery charger was reading low, your older post about parasitic draw sounds good to me. I bought the base model XL with no bells or wistles so I was thinking in terms of my truck. But I'm not so sure the extra bells and whistles would draw 80% if your battery in a short amount of time. I've run my truck's stereo plus a pair of 12 inch subwoofers for over 4 hours at full power and only got knocked down to about 9-10 volts. How many CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) is your battery? If I go with my 540 CCA down to 80%, that would be a loss of 108 amps and drop your battery down to something like 10 or 11 volts. Did I mess up on my math somewhere or use wrong numbers? If you left your lights on for a good while I'd expect to see something like that but it sounds like you hook the battery tender fairly soon after parking. I am pretty sure a single 55 watt bulb is usually around 4-5 amps. We must be arguing somewhere but I'm not sure over what. :nerd::hehe:

Question: What is the final voltage after the charger considers the battery to be at 100%?

We're not arguing at all, Longshot! We're having an adult discussion that often doesn't happen in other forums. But, I suspect we may be referring to different things, so there's a bit of misunderstanding.

Let's go back to my total "parasitic" draw of 0.1 amps. This can drain my Costco battery (I can't give you the CCA on it because it's covered by the battery holder cover in the truck and I don't want to disconnect the battery to read the numbers - but I know it's at least 50 CCA above OEM) in about 21 days.

According to the manual that came with my Battery Tender: A battery that is 100% charged should read about 12.9 V in a "resting", no-load state (which is several hours after being disconnected from any kind of charger). If it is fully discharged, the resting voltage will be about 11.4 V. If the output voltage is less than 9 V, it is probably defective.

I have another maintainer I use on my trailer batteries called the BatteryMinder Plus, and it says it only goes into the "maintenance/desulphation" mode when the charging voltage reaches 14 V. (It has to get this high during charging, indicating a lot of "back emf" or "charging resistance" to be at a full charge state).

Now, CCA can be a bit misleading. It refers to cranking ability. It's the number of amps a battery can support for 30 seconds at a temperature of 0 degrees F until the battery voltage drops to unusable levels. It's not the same thing as "cranking amps", which is what you get at 32 degrees F and it's not the same as "reserve capacity", which is more a measure of total power stored.

Here's a good link: http://www.carquest.com/partsBatteryFAQMyths.html#6 It covers many battery facts and myths.

And, back to your point about drain in your post. If I have a 0.1 amp parasitic draw, my Battery Tender, with it's potential 0.2 amp output at an 80%+ charge state is really only delivering 0.1 amps. Pretty puny charging current - but it won't boil the battery, either.

- Jack

[Longshot270]

We're not arguing at all, Longshot! We're having an adult discussion that often doesn't happen in other forums. But, I suspect we may be referring to different things, so there's a bit of misunderstanding.
Yeah, kind of strange not having some random person add a comment that doesn't make sence from any but his/her perspective. :hehe: But it is really refreshing, I can name a couple that I dont like on the fordf150.net



According to the manual that came with my Battery Tender: A battery that is 100% charged should read about 12.9 V in a "resting", no-load state (which is several hours after being disconnected from any kind of charger). If it is fully discharged, the resting voltage will be about 11.4 V. If the output voltage is less than 9 V, it is probably defective.

I have another maintainer I use on my trailer batteries called the BatteryMinder Plus, and it says it only goes into the "maintenance/desulphation" mode when the charging voltage reaches 14 V. (It has to get this high during charging, indicating a lot of "back emf" or "charging resistance" to be at a full charge state).

Now, CCA can be a bit misleading. It refers to cranking ability. It's the number of amps a battery can support for 30 seconds at a temperature of 0 degrees F until the battery voltage drops to unusable levels. It's not the same thing as "cranking amps", which is what you get at 32 degrees F and it's not the same as "reserve capacity", which is more a measure of total power stored.

I worked at Tractor Supply Co. for over a year (in high school so I was actually an old timer towards the end. lol) and can pretty much run everything except receiving although I can do some of that. We usually considered a battery fully charged at 12 to 12.6 so it makes sence that I'd be a little off.

[JWBFX4]

Well just to add a little to this.

I have had a good bit of electrical problems a while back (not on truck) and after talking and researching a lot about batteries, everything says that 12.6v is a fully charged battery. Anything above that is considered a "hot charge" Possible the 12.9 volts that your battery maintainer says is where it automatically kicks off to make sure it charged the battery enough :shrug:

I was always told if the battery is atleast 12.2 volts its in good cranking range anything under that needs charging and if it in the low to mid 11's very possibly bad battery.

[Jackpine]

Yeah, kind of strange not having some random person add a comment that doesn't make sence from any but his/her perspective. :hehe: But it is really refreshing, I can name a couple that I dont like on the fordf150.net

Yup, that's one that came to mind. We try to keep things a bit more civil on f150Online.com though. And I'm the "liberal" moderator there! Here, there's nothing to do as a moderator!

I worked at Tractor Supply Co. for over a year (in high school so I was actually an old timer towards the end. lol) and can pretty much run everything except receiving although I can do some of that. We usually considered a battery fully charged at 12 to 12.6 so it makes sence that I'd be a little off.

I think if you saw a "resting state battery" - disconnected from ALL draws and not connected to a charger for a couple of days showing below 12.4 V, I'd think it had a problem - possibly an internal short or so badly sulphated it couldn't take a full charge.

My "Battery Maintainer Plus" says a battery in the "grey" area CAN be revived though desulphation.

One thing I thought was interesting though in the link I posted last time was that an alternator is NOT a battery "charger" - it's more a battery maintainer. If you need to charge a battery, do NOT use the alternator to do it!

- Jack

[Longshot270]

Well we usually delt with grime covered batteries out of farm equipment. I can only remember a few cases that needed a battery on the spot where the vehicle was running on a dead battery that had seen regular use. But other than those few special cases, if they hadn't said they charged the battery the day before we would ask them to try it before buying a new one. It was suprising how many lasted for a few more months and you could tell those old ranchers were happy they tried it. Really helped boost customer brownie points for the younger guys compared to the leaders and managers who were always trying to sell the most expensive of everything. :D

[Jackpine]

Well just to add a little to this.

I have had a good bit of electrical problems a while back (not on truck) and after talking and researching a lot about batteries, everything says that 12.6v is a fully charged battery. Anything above that is considered a "hot charge" Possible the 12.9 volts that your battery maintainer says is where it automatically kicks off to make sure it charged the battery enough :shrug:

I was always told if the battery is atleast 12.2 volts its in good cranking range anything under that needs charging and if it in the low to mid 11's very possibly bad battery.

Welcome to the discussion!

I doubt there's any "hard and fast" figure. I'd certainly consider 12.6 V in a resting state battery to be fully charged. And, my manual states that age will cause all readings to drop, but the 1.5 V difference between fully charged and discharged is supposed to be fairly constant.

My experience with batteries seems to support this. And yes, 12.2 V should give you sufficient cranking voltage under normal circumstances. But, it might seem "weak" at that voltage.

Your "hot charge" is what you see on a battery right after disconnecting a charger. There's a "surface charge" that has to dissipate and it takes a few hours to do this if there's no draw. I think it MAY be a capacitive effect.

But, when you have a charger on the circuit delivering over 13 V, it keeps increasing the battery voltage to match. At some point, the charge voltage has to drop off or the battery will be overcharged (boiled). My BatteryMinder says this is 14 V. I know in the maintenance mode, both "maintainers" hold about a 13.5 V state, and according to the manuals, deliver very little Amperage.

Once you disconnect the chargers though, the surface charge (the "hot charge" of 13+ V) bleeds off and the battery settles into its "resting" state. I've honestly never seen 12.9 V here, but 12.7 V seems about right.

One of my trailer batteries suddenly went bad recently, while I was charging it through the onboard, regulated charger. At near full charge, I was used to seeing it draw about 34 Watts at 120 Volts. Suddenly, it spiked to about 96 Watts. I checked the batteries, and one was hot and "gassing". I pulled it out and immediately tested the voltage - it was around 11.2 V. My guess is, it had a shorted cell.

- Jack

[Jackpine]

Well we usually delt with grime covered batteries out of farm equipment. I can only remember a few cases that needed a battery on the spot where the vehicle was running on a dead battery that had seen regular use. But other than those few special cases, if they hadn't said they charged the battery the day before we would ask them to try it before buying a new one. It was suprising how many lasted for a few more months and you could tell those old ranchers were happy they tried it. Really helped boost customer brownie points for the younger guys compared to the leaders and managers who were always trying to sell the most expensive of everything. :D

Yup! I've gotten several more months out of a weak battery too, by charging it with a CHARGER, not the alternator. It's certainly worth a try, isn't it?

- Jack

[Longshot270]

I think most people have a hard time understanding all the different terms and laws for electricity. I've never had trouble but then again I played with my dad's multimeter a long time before I ever got anything like a game boy or computer. I have also been hit by just about every voltage in america. lol

[Jackpine]

I think most people have a hard time understanding all the different terms and laws for electricity. I've never had trouble but then again I played with my dad's multimeter a long time before I ever got anything like a game boy or computer. I have also been hit by just about every voltage in america. lol

THAT may explain a few things! :giggle:

- Jack

[88Racing]

I will just add this.
Back in my college days while driving a ford escort gt I did run into this problem.
The voltage regulator went bad and allowed the altenator to over charge the battery plus burnt out one of the head lamps.

Just a thought.

Lars

[Longshot270]

Oh yeah, fond memories. From showing off to the girl next door that a hot shot fence can make a colorful arc to yelling a string of colorful words when I got hit by a 220V welding plug that was not wired properly at the school...but since the ag teacher told me to stop cussing and didn't investigate why I was, I let him find out on his own, what I would have given for a bag of popcorn.:hehe:
:rofl:

[88Racing]

Oh yeah, fond memories. From showing off to the girl next door that a hot shot fence can make a colorful arc to yelling a string of colorful words when I got hit by a 220V welding plug that was not wired properly at the school...but since the ag teacher told me to stop cussing and didn't investigate why I was, I let him find out on his own, what I would have given for a bag of popcorn.:hehe:
:rofl:

:popcorn1:

Lars :2thumbs:

[Jackpine]

I'm going to add a final note here just in case we haven't already beaten this subject to death. As I mentioned, I had a trailer battery go bad and had to replace it recently. I brought both the one good "old" battery and the new battery separately up to full charge with the Battery Maintainer, and then I installed the new one in the trailer (they're connected in parallel of course). I put the Battery Maintainer on again and left it connected for a couple of days.

I disconnected the maintainer and 24 hours later, checked the battery voltage. It read 13.03 V. Now, I know my trailer has NO parasitic draw at all (I've verified that with an ammeter), so I doubt you'd see a figure this high if the battery was installed in a truck, but, it DOES lend support to the claim that a fully charged battery will show about 12.9 V in a "resting" state.

The reason I brought both batteries to full charge separately, was because I wanted minimal "imbalance" between them when I connected them together.

- Jack

[RGSMDNR]

Well i just had my truck in for service. They checked the battery and charging system and all checked ok. I did have the truck in stock mode and left my Gryphon at home. $80 later.... truck is fine. :cursin:

They didnt find any draw on the battery. Charged the battery, changed the oil and sent me home. I dont drive the truck all that often (Ive got a company vehicle) so it pretty much sits most of the week. I really dont want to have to unplug or connect a battery tender everytime i come home. Is there a way to 'turn off' the memory function. I dont think i need the data stored in the unit. I mainly use it for monitoring temps and such while i tow and fuel mileage.

[88Racing]

If you worried about the draw. Just unplug the gryphon when the truck is sitting. As far as other things in the truck to try and unplug that might be a PIA!
So a tender might be the best bet and the tender should also lengthen the life of the battery.

Lars

[88Racing]

The other problem that I have seen is very very rare. I emphasize rare. Its called shut down sequencing failure. This is what happens when the modules don't talk to the pcm when shutting down. When we shut our vehicles down, especially the ones mfgd in the last 10 years, a lot more happens than just turning off the key. The pcm likes to put all the modules "to bed" but if one of the modules isn't responding due to a intermitent connection the pcm cycles back through all the modules. It will keep doing this until its satisfied or the battery goes dead. All because one module isn't responding.
I have only seen this on 4 vehicles in the last 10 years and sometimes its a PIA to diagnose! Especially when the intermitent connection is present. Why am I emphasizing intermitent? Because a faulty module will throw a code. An intermitent module may be connected or disconnented, long enough in the sampling cycle for a code not to be important. Most of the time to diagnose the vehicle will have to be at the dealer overnight, maybe for one visit or possibly for multiple visits. I have seen this in 2 gms, 1 dodge, and 1 ford. Usually if this is the problem everthing on the charging/supply side has been replaced including cables and maybe even the battery twice.
I am pretty sure the OP's problem isn't this.

Lars

[Jackpine]

That's an interesting problem Lars! (Ain't progress wonderful?)

One of the f150Online members had a fuel pump relay that didn't open properly at shutdown, which put a big draw on his battery. He had to have the whole distribution panel (fuse box) replaced to fix it (since it's part of the panel and not replaceable).

To RGSMDNR, the BatteryTender or BatteryMinder is really not difficult to use at all. They come with a "quick plug in" connector that you can attach permanently to the screws on the battery posts. Then attaching the maintainer is a simple matter of raising the hood and plugging the maintainer in. Takes all of 10 seconds. It's MUCH more convenient than unplugging and plugging in the Gryphon. If I'm going to change the tune in my PCM, I just leave the maintainer connected, that way I know the battery is being held at near full charge.

I actually prefer the BatteryMinder, since it has a desulfation circuit. Here's a link to their website: http://www.batteryminders.com/batterycharger/catalog/BatteryMINDer-Plus-12-Volt-133-Amp-Charger-Maintainer-Conditio-p-16134.html

You can get them for around $42 online now I see. Sorry if it sounds like I'm selling them, I'm not. It's just that I see it as a perfect solution for trucks that sit for long intervals. There's no way, short of disconnecting the battery or pulling fuses that you can get rid of the truck's parasitic draw.

- Jack

[coolio4433]

Interesting that this is the case, but I suppose not entirely surprising. My truck sits for extended periods (especially in the summer when I drive my "summer only" car) and I finally had the battery drain to the point where it wouldn't start the other day. A quick jump and I was back on the road though.

My truck sits outside year round though so a battery tender isn't as good an option for me (especially so when it's parked on the street).

I guess I'll probably start unplugging the gyphon now to keep this from happening again. I also decided that the auto headlights (they come on when you unlock the truck when on that setting) are probably not helping either so I flipped those off.

Hopefully those will do the trick, but I'm tempted to get a new battery before winter anyway. I hear the DieHard Platinum are top of the line. Anyone here have opinions?

-Matt

[88Racing]

coolio4433 here's a thread on battery recomendations:http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1830
A good read!
Lars

[coolio4433]

coolio4433 here's a thread on battery recomendations:http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1830
A good read!
Lars

thanks!