How Bout' a "Snow and Ice" tune

[soutthpaw]

I drove up to Denver today in the snow and ice and came up with the idea of a Snow and Ice tune. currently I only had the 60 80 and 100 HP tunes loade. several times when i gave it gas on the hill climb on the freeway the wheels would break loose. Maybe Bill could add this to their selection of tunes for the FU and flip chip. basically we want to avoid wheel slip as much as possible. also want to stay off brakes as much as possible when slowing. Here are some of the things I was thinking about

below stock power levels on light to med throttle
hold the higher gears longer
allow 2nd gear manual start
slow soft TC lockup delayed unlock
engine braking automatically on decel
Longer glow plug on times
faster engine warm up

any other ideas? As I am clueless about auto transmission stuff I am kinda hoping Cody or Bill can throw out some ideas...

I think this should also be a good MPG tune as we would be backing off the power and fuel levels :o

[cleatus12r]

I drove up to Denver today in the snow and ice and came up with the idea of a Snow and Ice tune. currently I only had the 60 80 and 100 HP tunes loade. several times when i gave it gas on the hill climb on the freeway the wheels would break loose. Maybe Bill could add this to their selection of tunes for the FU and flip chip. basically we want to avoid wheel slip as much as possible. also want to stay off brakes as much as possible when slowing. Here are some of the things I was thinking about

below stock power levels on light to med throttle How about reduced power across the board...EASY to do. Limit torque to about 50% at all times.
hold the higher gears longer
allow 2nd gear manual startCan already be done by putting the gear selector in "2".
slow soft TC lockup delayed unlock Easy. I'd keep the unlock points the same....only because it's safer to use brake applications vs. engine braking.
engine braking automatically on decelEngine braking (or lots of it) is bad on ice. If you get the rear tires to lock up with braking, it's unlikely they'll start to roll again if there is too much resistance.
Longer glow plug on times They're already on for a stupid-long time as it is. Glow plug usage after the engine is started and has been running for 30 seconds is a waste of a good alternator.
faster engine warm up That's ALL determined by the driver. These engines will not get warm at all just idling away (or running with the exhaust backpressure valve closed @1100 RPM). Driving them is the only way to improve warm-up times. You have to realize that idling causes exhaust temps in the <300 degree range. With all the coolant that these beasts hold, it takes a good long time to get it hot without any combustion heat. Gassers typically run at 900-1100+ degrees at an idle which heats up the coolant a lot faster....even without a load on them.



any other ideas? As I am clueless about auto transmission stuff I am kinda hoping Cody or Bill can throw out some ideas...

I think this should also be a good MPG tune as we would be backing off the power and fuel levels :o

You have a good idea, but for the most part the only thing you can do to keep from spinning is using a stock program or less than stock power levels.

Keep the thinking cap on! :thumbs up yellow:

[soutthpaw]

I thought if you put it in second it still drops to first if you stop or put too much load on?
with engine braking you are forcing the front and rear axle to stay at the same speed rather than one end locking up though.... would be fun to try out some tuning ... at some point Ill get some quiet time to look at my maps and see what I can change

Humm what about increasing the amount of torque reduction in the up shift. Im thinking higher throttle position the more torque reduction you would want???

[907DAVE]

Maybe make the idle when extremely cold (about -20 to -40)not sound so freakin loud. Kinda scary sounding.

Also I think all the shifts should be really smooth and early, lock the TC sooner than normal to keep RPM's low(below 1800).

This is one of the main reasons I want the Minotaur Software.

[cleatus12r]

I thought if you put it in second it still drops to first if you stop or put too much load on?
with engine braking you are forcing the front and rear axle to stay at the same speed rather than one end locking up though.... would be fun to try out some tuning ... at some point Ill get some quiet time to look at my maps and see what I can change

Humm what about increasing the amount of torque reduction in the up shift. Im thinking higher throttle position the more torque reduction you would want???


Nope, no matter how far into the go-pedal you get, if the selector is in "2", then the truck will be in second. It is a function of the manual valve only (the one hooked to the shift cable). GM on the other hand....:doh:

The problem with driving in four wheel drive is that there is ALWAYS the increased possibility of a slide due to ALL tires losing traction. During engine braking, it's not really likely. However, when in 4x4 with a mechanically linked transfer system (like our SD trucks and Excursions have) if one wheel locks up....they all lock. Also during turning maneuvers, the risk of the rear tires pushing the front through a corner is increased....especially with a limited slip rear differential because the binding created in the drivetrain WILL be alleviated through the drive wheels.

The factory "torque reduction" strategy is great. The way they are set up in most aftermarket tuning is too harsh. Bill and I have already went into this a little.

[cleatus12r]

Maybe make the idle when extremely cold (about -20 to -40)not sound so freakin loud. Kinda scary sounding.

Also I think all the shifts should be really smooth and early, lock the TC sooner than normal to keep RPM's low(below 1800).

This is one of the main reasons I want the Minotaur Software.

Been there, done that.

I use 5/40 in the winter and have written programs to address this concern relating to SOI vs. EOT and SOI delay when the engine is really cold.

I agree with the smooth shifts....always have agreed no matter if it's for icy roads or driving on pavement in the summer.

The problem with applying the torque converter clutch earlier is that even though there is less torque available in sub-1800 RPM ranges, the drive wheels get a direct power input from the engine. Conversely, when the TCC is not applied, the slippage in the fluid coupling greatly softens the "impact" of torque application to the rear wheels.

[907DAVE]

Maybe change the PWM of the TCC to soften its application, and have it unlock immediatly when you let off the pedal, for me any way to keep the R's down would be nice.

[cleatus12r]

Maybe change the PWM of the TCC to soften its application, and have it unlock immediatly when you let off the pedal, for me any way to keep the R's down would be nice.

Piece of cake. The TCC apply rate can be changed to apply the clutch softly. BUT "burn time" is not good and the longer the apply takes to reach 60+% duty cycle the more friction material damage due to heat. I use the value of 60% because it is usually enough to create a lock and hold condition depending on EPC or "line pressure".

Unlocking the TCC on deceleration is also possible. Heck, lots of PCM strategies out there do that anyway. :doh: It's possible to change a few parameters and get even a PMT1 to do it.

[907DAVE]

Been there, done that.

I use 5/40 in the winter and have written programs to address this concern relating to SOI vs. EOT and SOI delay when the engine is really cold.

I

Is there any harm by doing this? Shouldn't the engine noise level be similar on a cold engine as a warm one? Or are there other things influencing this? I realize that it wont be as quiet but damn this thing can get really loud. As a tuner how would you know when you have gone too far?

[cleatus12r]

Is there any harm by doing this? Shouldn't the engine noise level be similar on a cold engine as a warm one? Or are there other things influencing this? I realize that it wont be as quiet but damn this thing can get really loud. As a tuner how would you know when you have gone too far?

There isn't any real mechanical harm in "retarding" the start of injection when the engine's cold. As far as retarding the SOI goes, it's not really "retarding" since it's more accurate to say that it's just less advanced. A lot of folks sell quiet tunes....even PHP has a Whisper Mode. Incorporating less advance in both the Start Of Injection for RPM vs. EOT and the Start Of Injection Delay for EOT vs. ICP maps allows the PCM to delay the commanded injection event slightly for the thinner oil when cold since the whole reason that map is there is because of the oil viscosity along with slower combustion rates and longer ignition time. Using 5W/40 oil when cold results in a "faster" injector than one utilizing 15W/40 at the same temperature therefore less advancing of the timing is necessary.

The noise level will always be slightly higher with a colder engine because it is working harder just to stay running. The drawbacks to not enough injector "lead time" when cold could be harder starting, white/bluish smoke, and sluggish performance. It takes quite a bit of "less SOI advance" to get these drawbacks so once you get to the hard starting or smoking, you've gone too far with that particular truck. Too much SOI advance is definitely audible and it's something that should be avoided for fear of a junk engine.

If you've ever heard of people recommending being easy on the engine while it's cold, it's because of these EOT related maps. There is A LOT of "advancing" going on there. Add into that the increased SOI of aftermarket tuning (RPM vs. Mass Fuel Desired) and you get some pretty awesome timing.

[John Anderson]

Why not just soften the throttle table a little. You would have to basically push much harder to the same amount of power. Everything above half throttle could be the same, but below kill it by about 10-15 percent.

[cleatus12r]

From post number 2:
.........for the most part the only thing you can do to keep from spinning is using a stock program or less than stock power levels.

Exactly my thinking, John!

[88Racing]

Just get yourself some of these:www.mattracks.com
Then you will be able to go anywhere!
J/K!!!!!
LOL's
Lars :cheesy smile:

[907DAVE]

There isn't any real mechanical harm in "retarding" the start of injection when the engine's cold. As far as retarding the SOI goes, it's not really "retarding" since it's more accurate to say that it's just less advanced. A lot of folks sell quiet tunes....even PHP has a Whisper Mode. Incorporating less advance in both the Start Of Injection for RPM vs. EOT and the Start Of Injection Delay for EOT vs. ICP maps allows the PCM to delay the commanded injection event slightly for the thinner oil when cold since the whole reason that map is there is because of the oil viscosity along with slower combustion rates and longer ignition time. Using 5W/40 oil when cold results in a "faster" injector than one utilizing 15W/40 at the same temperature therefore less advancing of the timing is necessary.

The noise level will always be slightly higher with a colder engine because it is working harder just to stay running. The drawbacks to not enough injector "lead time" when cold could be harder starting, white/bluish smoke, and sluggish performance. It takes quite a bit of "less SOI advance" to get these drawbacks so once you get to the hard starting or smoking, you've gone too far with that particular truck. Too much SOI advance is definitely audible and it's something that should be avoided for fear of a junk engine.

If you've ever heard of people recommending being easy on the engine while it's cold, it's because of these EOT related maps. There is A LOT of "advancing" going on there. Add into that the increased SOI of aftermarket tuning (RPM vs. Mass Fuel Desired) and you get some pretty awesome timing.

For me the truck gets extremely loud during cold startup and easy driving even after extended idle time. I realize that the EOT is not up to temp yet which is why it is like this, but it really does not sound healthy at all. It has really concerned me. Keep in mind that I am running Hybrid injectors and know that it will never be as quiet as it was with the split's in there. So if I understand correctly if the truck is properly tuned when cold the idle and cruising noise levels should be similar to when the truck is warmed up? And its possible that I can be doing more harm to the engine with this (advanced SOI) than I could be with it less advanced? The white/blue smoke does not bother me much as I no longer have the intake air heater, fuel heater, or EBPV anymore and those all aid in reducing that. EPA probably wont like me much but I dont mind.

Ok, so how about doing the same thing (lessening SOI) on a warm engine to reduce engine noise. What adverse effects would that have. I would assume higher EGT's and poor economy, anything else? Would be nice to have a tune for city driving where economy and EGT's are nut much of a concern anyways.

Sorry, I am green at this and trying to get a handle on things.

[cleatus12r]

For me the truck gets extremely loud during cold startup and easy driving even after extended idle time. I realize that the EOT is not up to temp yet which is why it is like this, but it really does not sound healthy at all. It has really concerned me. Keep in mind that I am running Hybrid injectors and know that it will never be as quiet as it was with the split's in there. I think you've realized the biggest issue. Yes, single shot injectors will inherently cause more combustion noise than split shots due to one big bang rather than the softened blow of two smaller injection events that makes a split shot what it is.So if I understand correctly if the truck is properly tuned when cold the idle and cruising noise levels should be similar to when the truck is warmed up? Not totally true, but the truck shouldn't sound like a 6.5L Chevy. If you've ever heard one of those, then that's what you don't want.And its possible that I can be doing more harm to the engine with this (advanced SOI) than I could be with it less advanced? Most of the time, this is the case. Later SOI will almost always be easier on the reciprocating assembly than earlier SOI to a point. Too late to the point of causing white smoke will wash down the cylinder walls with raw fuel and get rid of the oil barrier on the piston rings. It will also cause a severe lack of power, higer EGT (if a complete burn is accomplished), and just a waste of fuel.The white/blue smoke does not bother me much as I no longer have the intake air heater, fuel heater, or EBPV anymore and those all aid in reducing that. EPA probably wont like me much but I dont mind.

Ok, so how about doing the same thing (lessening SOI) on a warm engine to reduce engine noise. What adverse effects would that have. I would assume higher EGT's and poor economy, anything else? Would be nice to have a tune for city driving where economy and EGT's are nut much of a concern anyways.

Sorry, I am green at this and trying to get a handle on things.

I'm not sure what you have as far as tuning goes (Minotaur, FU2, etc.) but it's not that big of a deal to slightly retard SOI in certain parts of the maps but a trained ear is ALWAYS going to be better than a stab in the dark. Live tuning is a great tool in this area because you can change stuff while you're driving instead of making 6 different programs at a time and driving each one until you get a feel for them and then making tuning changes, erasing the chip, rewriting it, and then driving again.

[907DAVE]

I have custom tunes from another company, so would the Romulator be worth getting with the Minotaur package?

Still waiting on a reply from Bill to set me up with what I need.

[cleatus12r]

would the Romulator be worth getting with the Minotaur package?



I'm glad I did it. However, I tune on the side (as a hobby for now) for other folks so it was almost a necessity.

[907DAVE]

Sure wish I knew how much all this is going to cost me:poke:

[cleatus12r]

You don't want to know. Just give Corey your credit card information and worry about it later! :smiley_roll1:

$695 for Minotaur with a chip, burner, and the binary for your truck.
<$300 for the Emulator and adapter.

You'll be in it close to $1000.

[907DAVE]

Well I was hoping I had a special situation, wishful thinking I guess.