Combining Tunes

[907DAVE]

So I have been thinking about tuning lately and had an idea, why not combine tunes to have one that can do it all, well almost.
My thought were to have a program that could incorporate economy, daily, and high power. I would have the economy for light cruise, daily for moderate acceleration, and high power for heavy to full throttle. Is this possible? I assume it would take alot of time to get things right but think it would be worth the time invested to accomplish this. Dont get me wrong I think it's pretty cool clicking it up to "6" and standing on it. I would have to have a separate program for towing , because of the shift strategy but would love to have a setting I could leave it it most of the time. What do you guys and gals think?

-Dave

[Jackpine]

I doubt seriously it's possible. Bill, of course, would be able to answer this more definitively, but in engineering, everything is a compromise. You are going to sacrifice power if you opt for economy and vice versa. It's possible to try to improve all parameters over stock, but I doubt you'd be able to maximize any of them if you tried to improve all of them.

- Jack

[cleatus12r]

Here's a thread from a while back.

See in particular the posts from #5 on up.

http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1663

[907DAVE]

Here's a thread from a while back.

See in particular the posts from #5 on up.

http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1663

Good read... I understand that each program is geared towards perfecting its intent, tow, economy, etc. I agree with your ideas about APP sensitivity, and tow programming, if my truck can do nothing else it HAS to tow well. Especially around here where roads can become very treacherous. Extreme cold, big hills, icy and bumpy roads mean the truck has to operate very smooth. Besides towing, I dont see why there could not be a Daily tune that (sorry diesel guys) could be more like driving a NA gas rig. Not lookin to set speed / hp records with a Daily tune just think that it could "do" a little more. Maybe I just have not had a good one yet. Guess thats were live tuning comes in.

[soutthpaw]

I didn't read the link cody posted as I'm on my BB. However an all in one is much more doable on a manual tranny vs automatics.
I just made a tune though that combines features of a couple of bills tunes. 75hp FS with 80 perf. Along with my timing mods for altitude and some expermential tweaking of reduced pulse width and increased ICP in the highway crusing range.
The goal is an increased cruising mpg with the throttle response of the perf tunes. Like cody I don't care for the lazy throttle on stock and FS. But the lower shift points work for me. Also copied the stock TC duty cycle map from stock due to weird Shift issues I posted about a while back on FS. Its in this forum. You really can't make a performance and tow tune together.
I just ran a full tank of fuel with the chip removed to get a baseline and reminder of stock so I can compare the 2.
If you have a pyro gauge u can use a higher hp tune towing but u need to watch the temps if u r into the throttle a lot or on a long climb. to a point the various hp tunes are all about protecting people from themselves so they don't destroy their engine inadvertently.

I actually dropped the smoke and 140hp cuz I almost never used them. That way I have more slots for other tunes.
As of yet I really haven't noticed a significant mpg difference across all tunes inc stock. Pretty much average 16mpg and 2 mpg either side of that.

[cleatus12r]

Besides towing, I dont see why there could not be a Daily tune that (sorry diesel guys) could be more like driving a NA gas rig. Not lookin to set speed / hp records with a Daily tune just think that it could "do" a little more. Maybe I just have not had a good one yet. Guess thats were live tuning comes in.

There are ways of getting what you want. In all honesty, there are very few differences in "daily driving" tunes and performance tunes as far as fuel injection rates and SOI are concerned. Most performance tunes can be mirrored to daily driving tunes. The main differences come with shift points, shift feel, and torque converter clutch apply strategies.

I have had success in actually mapping out shift timing that changes significantly from the first 1/3 of accelerator pedal travel to the second 2/3 of travel. This gives early, comfortable shifts when not on the go-pedal and crisp, later shifts after 1/3 APP. The torque converter is tricky here because the apply speeds are only a guideline. There are always discrepancies in the speed unless parameters in the tuning are changed allow an accurate and "repeatable" TCC apply every time whenever you want it to. Again, more than 1/3 APP would be more aggressive. Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to vary TCC apply rate with a given calculated load. The duty cycle ramp rate in the tuning is based on fluid temperature and time...not load or APP.

Hope this helps.

[907DAVE]

Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to vary TCC apply rate with a given calculated load. The duty cycle ramp rate in the tuning is based on fluid temperature and time...not load or APP.

Hope this helps.

Strange....thought it would be controlled by LOAD/APP/RPM. The shift strategy would be the major focus if I were to try to make a program like this. But it still would be nice to have a little extra go up top. Hmmmmm.......you guys make it sound so simple yet I feel I will be totally lost when time comes to make it happen.

Thanks
Dave

[cleatus12r]

Strange....thought it would be controlled by LOAD/APP/RPM.


Logically, that would be the case.

However.....that's not how Ford decided to do it. :shrug:

That map makes sense; obviously, even a 20W oil like ATF flows slower when it's cold so the map is aimed at how long the TCC takes to apply with fluid of different temperatures.

A second map would be better. I was looking at some more of the "functions" this afternoon and may have come up with how to make the TCC apply more quickly (firmer) with varying APP.

Expect updates.........:crazy:

[907DAVE]

Logically, that would be the case.

However.....that's not how Ford decided to do it. :shrug:

That map makes sense; obviously, even a 20W oil like ATF flows slower when it's cold so the map is aimed at how long the TCC takes to apply with fluid of different temperatures.

A second map would be better. I was looking at some more of the "functions" this afternoon and may have come up with how to make the TCC apply more quickly (firmer) with varying APP.

Expect updates.........:crazy:

After thinking about it there must be a map to control TCC vs APP. My current Drag tune will only lock the converter (earlier) at WOT. Otherwise will stay unlocked untill after 3rd gear. Hope you find a way to do this, it would be really cool to have even more control over these things.

[cleatus12r]

After thinking about it there must be a map to control TCC vs APP.

Well that's easy since there are many functions relating TCC apply to APP vs. vehicle speed in each gear. I have MANY variations in these functions because each program type is going to require a different TCC apply speed in different gears. I was speaking more along the lines of TCC apply rate depending on APP. For example, having a less harsh apply while simply accelerating with traffic at less than 1/3 APP but then when you're shoveling the coal to it, have the TCC apply more firmly.

[907DAVE]

:doh:Gotcha, would make alot of sense to have that second map to change the TCC application rate. Pretty irritating when the TC "bangs" in when at a light cruisie. Not to get off subject completely but what do the OBS guys do to controll their TCC, thought it was more like an on/off switch, no PWM.

[cleatus12r]

It is an on/off type deal and increasing the feel involves increasing the line pressure. This then requires a reduction of pressure during shifts......:crazy:

[907DAVE]

Ahhh......I see, up the line pressure to firm/quicken application, and drop them to shift on time and keep them smooth.

Wish I had a chance to look at the program and some of the maps so I could get a better idea of how this all works!



















*patiently waiting*

[cleatus12r]

Want some screenshots?

Or will that just make it harder to wait?

[907DAVE]

Want some screenshots?

Or will that just make it harder to wait?

LOL.....yup will make it harder for sure, but if you dont mind posting a few I wouldnt mind looking at them.:)

[soutthpaw]

YEP let's See em' Cody:drool2:

[cleatus12r]

Here are a couple.

Anything in particular you'd like to see?

The first one is a few of the shifts in a heavy towing program (blue) vs. stock (black).

EDIT:

The upper left is 2-3 shift, the upper right is 2nd gear TCC apply, the bottom left is 3-4 upshift, and the bottom right is the 4-3 downshift.

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/towingshifts.jpg

This explains some changes. I sent this picture to "Pocket" on PSN because he was wondering about how much "tinkering" can be done with the shifts. Black is the towing program. Blue is something else.....and red is stock.

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/shiftscheduletables.jpg

[907DAVE]

Nice, wish they were a little bigger. So the left side of the graph is MPH and lower is Throttle Position? If so what values are used for the TPS?

[cleatus12r]

Sorry, I should have used Photobucket......

I'll edit that post and put some REAL pictures in it. I forgot that attachments came up tiny.

Hang on a minute....

EDIT: THERE THEY ARE.

MPH vs. APP in A/D counts.

[907DAVE]

Wow......really cool stuff. The A/D counts seams a little hard to relate. Heck I am sure that all of it is going to be hard to relate to. What are the #'s in red, different map?


On edit I see what he red is now.

[907DAVE]

Ohhh man...... dont know if you should have done that, lil excited now!

So would you say that 600 a/d counts would be roughly 1/2 throttle or more like 2/3?

[cleatus12r]

From Cartechbooks:

"Ford EECs convert most voltage inputs from sensors (MAF, TPS, etc.) into an A/D count before actual processing. Some software packages normalize this to only show voltage values in the editor; others leave it as counts. The actual scaling depends upon the clock speed of the processor being used, but it always works out such that 0 to 5v reference signals become 0 to 1,023 A/D counts."

It's just the way the PCM relates to input voltages....without using actual voltage. You can assume that 512 A/D counts will be 2.5 volts. Just keep in mind that the A/D on most sensors....especially the TPS...will never be 0 counts but more of a minimum of 70-80 counts.

[907DAVE]

Ok, makes sense. Should be pretty fun to do once you get it figured out.

Thanks Cody!

[cleatus12r]

No sweat. Anytime. Just ask if you want to see anything else in particular.

EDIT:

The graphs don't look that bunched up when you only have one or two in the window....you can make them full-screen and get some resolution out of them.

[907DAVE]

No sweat. Anytime. Just ask if you want to see anything else in particular.

Well since you offered, how bout some Mass Fuel Desired, or SOI maps, next time you get a chance.

Thanks in advance

[cleatus12r]

Got a minute?

[907DAVE]

Yeah buddy!

[cleatus12r]

Stock PMT1 stuff. SOI, SOI delay, Pulse width, PW multiplier. For me to post and you to figure out......:smiley_roll1:

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/fueling1-1.jpg


http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/fueling2-1.jpg

[907DAVE]

Awesome...thanks again