4.6 to 5.4 swap? BILL....HELP!!!

[RobbyMartin]

I've lost compression in one of my cylinders recently and I'm going through a self debate of whether to swap from 4.6 to 5.4 or just to replace with a different 4.6 all together. This is the second time in 2 years this has happened to me and it's not cheap. I want the extra power of the 5.4 because I'm power hungry and I know it can be done but is it worth the extra work and $$$ to make everything connect right (exhaust collectors, wiring, and computer tuned to be a 5.4, etc)? Can you do that Bill?


On another note, the truck is lifted with 35" tires and has 4.56 gears. I'm considering going down to 4.11's ... what's your input?


I want everyones opinion on both things please....I'm desperate and need to act soon.

[Jackpine]

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but wouldn't a new truck actually make more sense? I don't know the age of your truck, but the mods you are considering are not cheap and, you're still left with some older, "closer to failure", components.

- Jack

[Power Hungry]

Robby,

Jack brings up a good point. What year is your truck? Depending on just how much you have invested, it might make more sense to just hunt down a 5.4L. However, if the 5.4L conversion is the route you decide to take, a LOT is going to depend on what year the truck is. Switching form a 2V 4.6L to a 2V 5.4L isn't all that bad. Switching from a 2V 4.6L to a 3V 5.4L opens up a whole world of problems.

Let me know what we're working with here and we'll see what advice we can offer.

Take care.

[RobbyMartin]

Jack and Bill,

My truck is an '02 Screw w/165k miles. I would love to get into a new truck but I don't have that option or being able to afford a payment every month, so upgrading was something I really wanted to consider. I'm staying with the 5.4 2v family because I hear it is much much easier than going to 3v. I hear that I have to have a 5.4 tune for it to run right. Does that mean that I can plug in a tuner meant for a 5.4 or does it go beyond that? I need to act on what I'm going to do in the next day or so, so I am counting on you guys to help me decide on the 5.4 or the 4.6.

Thanks
Rob

[88Racing]

If you have a 4.6L 2V then stick with that. The only gains with the 5.4L 2V is a little bit of hp and some more torque.(Can't find the #'s right now)
But if you do have some extra cash and can find a new or used 5.4 2V then do go ahead with that option. Make sure to get the related components with the motor. A salvage yard may be your best friend.

[RobbyMartin]

I'm going with the 5.4 for sure.....I found a mechanic that says he can change the motor from a 2V to a 3V and will guarantee all his work. He's an engine builder for a local stock car team in my area and I hear he is good.

[Jackpine]

I'm going with the 5.4 for sure.....I found a mechanic that says he can change the motor from a 2V to a 3V and will guarantee all his work. He's an engine builder for a local stock car team in my area and I hear he is good.

Wow! Take a great big deep breath and cross your fingers! I'll be interested in how it turns out. I know it CAN be done, and if you've got the right guy, you're all set. :thumbsup:

- Jack

[RobbyMartin]

I hope he knows his Fords. Just being curious, what are the major hiccups with going from 2V to 3V?

[Jackpine]

I hope he knows his Fords. Just being curious, what are the major hiccups with going from 2V to 3V?

I don't have a clue. Bill does, and I suspect Lars might too. And, I'm sure there are others on here that know something about this "mod". ;) Maybe they'll chime in here and give you some thoughts.

- Jack

[88Racing]

I think I'm on hdforum's no wait it PHP.
TBW-throttle by wire.
Different PCM.
Stick with the 5.4 2V and avoid the "plug" problem or find an 08' with brown COP boots= good plugs.
Jeeez trying to recall the differences.
I will be back with more.

[Power Hungry]

Going from a 2V to a 3V is going to be a nightmare. Completely different harness/engine controls. You are going to have a wiring mess for sure. I'd stick with a 2V 5.4L just because it's basically a bolt in with some minor ECM changes. That is unless you're just itching for a good, level 4 difficulty project.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but because the engine controls on the 3V are so integrated into the rest of the vehicle, you're likely to find that even if you got the engine to run, many other subsystems are going to have issues because of the incompatibility between communications protocols. 2003 and earlier use SCP/J1850 communications and 2004 and later use CAN communications.

Take care.

[CageFighter_Dan]

well this is my first post on here, normally i am on a different f150 forum,
I have done this exact engine swap project in my 97 f150 4x4 XL originally with the 4.6l (romeo) engine and swapped it with a 2003 5.4l 2v

The best advice I can give you right now is this read and memorize this post from this other forum, it is reffered to as the BIBLE of the 4.6-5.4 engine swap.
It truelly saved me alot of time, money , and just a couple naughty words :censored1: nothing can completely save you from a couple of those, it happens just from opening the hood and having to get out your socket set lol

this is the link to the forum that turned my project into a 50 hr one instead of a 2 week one

http://www.f150online.com/forums/articles-how-tos/355403-4-6-5-4-swap-notes.html
(it may be down temporarily for site maintanance for just a little bit)

Basically this is what i experienced first hand with the project.
Keep your wire harness and pcm from the original vehicle.
the newer engine will have a cop ignition system apposed to your coil ignition
you can swap out the the cop spark plug addapters and plug your coil directly to it, you do have to fab/ drill out the coil packs mounting bracket so you can mount it on the new engine roughly in the same place as it was on the original engine.

SAVE ! the two temp sensors on the intake manifold cross over pipe i believe they were a 19m wrench to unscrew them.

tap them into the new engines crossover( other wise you won't get temp reading in the vehicle for the first one and the second one is the sender to your pcm, and it will think your vehicle is always running at -40 degrees and run like snot) personal experience for that one lol

the tap you will need will be a 3/8 npt 18 national pipe thread, found that out the hard way as well, i found one on ebay for 4.99, beat paying over 50 bucks anywhere else if you don't have anyone with one.

the rear plug that comes out from under the intake to a sensor , not sure what it was called has a male end on it and the new engine had a female end, simply fix, cut the original off and splice it into the new engines one, only two wires pretty fool proof

as for the engine aspect for the pcm its up to bill to do his magic ( which i am still waiting on lol) with his gryphon programmer and some fine tweaking for , idle control and ship points.

I am currently driving this vehicle with out the reflash and it is doing ok as my daily driver, shift points need some work other then that and our -30 winter weather here i am very happy with the change in "balls" the truck has and all around performance, it will be amazing to the see the difference one the stock pcm actually knows what it has at its finger tips under the hood.

oh yes the other thing , the passenger side donut that connects to the manifold from the headers, is on a different angle so you need to reweld a piece of pipe for it , or get a muffler shop to do it , which i desided to do , only cost 30 bucks, i have 3" pipe tdirectly to a dynaflow exhaust straight out the back with all 4 cats out , sounds great and runs very well with no codes

any questions or need of first hand experience of this project feel free to message me or shoot an email to me and I'll do my best to help ya out

NOw Bill get me my programmer so i can raise some hell with this truck lol, or at least answer the phones , hehehehhe i know you guys are crazy busy:2thumbs:

Dan

[CageFighter_Dan]

Notes for 4.6 to 5.4 swap Part 1 Revised 4 May 2009

Exhaust: The collectors on the exhaust manifolds are set at different angles and locations. The 4.6 exhaust might not bolt up to 5.4 manifold. You may need to have a muffler shop modify your 4.6 exhaust to match up.

Ignition: All 5.4 engines use Cop ignition. . 2000 and later 4.6 use COP ignition. 1997-99 4.6 engines use coil packs. It is easier to wire your 5.4 using the harness from the 4.6 and use the 4.6 ignition coil packs if applicable. If you use the 4.6 Coil pack ignition you will have to fab a bracket for the driver side coil pack.

Engine harness: To use a 4.6 PCM to run a 5.4 engine: The IAC harness must be relocated to the rear of the throttle body elbow. The oil sender wire on the 4.6 may be too short so measure or test fit the harness to see if it must be extended. All 97-00 and some 2001 4.6 engines use some sort of intake manifold runner control valve. Remove it from the 4.6 and plug it into the 4.6 harness and bolt it to the engine some where out of the way. Note; you can get a tune to remove its function and eliminate it all together.
All 97-98 4.6 engines use an Engine Coolant Temp sensor (ECT) and an Engine Coolant Temp sender. By the 99 Model year the ECT was dropped in both the 4.6 and 5.4 harness as the Cylinder Head Temperature sensor (CHT) was used for the PCM to monitor coolant temps. None of the 00+ 5.4s use ECT sensor or sender. Some of the 99 5.4s still use the sender to feed info to the instrument cluster. You will have to tap the intake manifold crossover pipe to fit the sensor(s) if your 4.6 has them and the 5.4 doesn’t.

Transmissions: the 4.6 and 5.4 have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. That means that all the transmissions will bolt up. All the 5.4 engines have 8 bolt crankshafts. Some 4.6 engines (ROMEO ENGINE) have 6 bolt cranks. You will need the flex plate from the 5.4.
Manual transmissions: If you don’t have an 8 bolt flywheel a flywheel from a 1997-8 4.6 Windsor engine will work. As it has 8 bolts it will bolt right up to the 5.4 crank. Remove the flex plate spacer and install a pilot bearing from a 4.6.
Special note about the different automatic transmissions and their respective harnesses. You cannot run a 4R100 transmission with a PCM that had a 4R70W transmission and vice versa. The transmission harnesses are different and will not plug into the different engine bay harness. The control functions in the PCM are not compatible so the transmission will not function properly.


Torque Converters:
4R70W
ENGINE Stall Speed Multiplication
4.2 1978-2330 2.3:1
4.6 2105-2505 2.3:1
5.4 1830-2190 1.9:1

4R100
All Engines ?????? 2.2:1
If you swap a 5.4 into a 4.6 engine bay and use the 4.6 converter you will multiply the 5.4's torque at a higher rate and at a higher stall speed which will put the torque at the transmission input shaft close to the limit if not over the limit of the 4R70W. The 99+ 5.4 produces 350 ft/lbs of torque. 90% of that is available at 2000 rpm. The stall speed of the 4.6 is above the 2000 rpm range so more than 90% is available. 350 ft/lbs x 2.3(4.6 multiplier) x 90% is 724.5 ft/lbs.

Notes for 4.6 to 5.4 swap Part 2 Revised 6 December 2008

Tuning: It is best to have a custom tune done to accommodate the extra displacement of the 5.4.
You should be able to use the 4.6 MAF as any competent tuner can adjust for it. It is always best to discuss this with your tuner.

Knock Sensor: The 97-98 99 4.6 uses a 2 wire knock sensor. The 97-98 5.4 has 3 wires of which one is a ground for the shield. Both have a Yellow /red wire to pin 57 on PCM.
1997-98-99-2000-01 Yellow/red to 57 on PCM 4.6 Same for 5.4.
97-98 Pin 91 feeds power for 4.6 and other components. Same for 5.4
1999- 2000-01 Pin 32 for power. Same for 5.4
2002+ Cannot confirm.

Accessories: Some engines have 8 rib serpentine belts and some have 6. Be sure to check so that your accessories have the correct pulley.

PATS (Passive Anti-Theft System) : The 1999 model year saw the introduction of the PATS as standard equipment on the F-150. If you try to use the PCM from a PATS equipped truck (1999 +) on a non PATS equipped truck (1997-98) you will run into wiring problems. The instrument cluster in PATS equipped vehicles communicates with the PCM and they share security data. The work as a pair and if you use a different PCM they will need to be reprogrammed to work together. For a PATS capable PCM to function in a Non PATS vehicle the PATS function in the PCM must be disabled. So a 1999+ 5.4 PCM in a 1997-98 truck will need to have its PATS disabled. 1999+ 5.4 PCM in a 1999+ 4.6 Truck will need to have the PCM configured to the 4.6 instrument cluster or have the PATS disabled.

Misc: Both engines use the same engine mounts and their location on the block are also the same so your old ones will fit. Unbolt and place aside the AC and PS. You need to remove the intake manifold for the engine to come out. Yes there are 3 bolts on the starter.

[RobbyMartin]

Apparently, the mechanic and I had a miscommunication about the engine chosen. What I'm actually getting is a 2v 5.4 from a 2003 used vehicle. He swore that a 3v would be no sweat but I think he re-evaluated and figured that a 2v was less of a headache and I fully understand. I'm still waiting for the truck to get back to me to see the final result.

[CageFighter_Dan]

well the mechanic made the right dicision in my oppinion. wayyy to much extra bs with trying to do a 3v converstion, i have the exact engine in mine that he is talking about. And i love the results so far, they will be even better once the tuner is here next week from bill with the custom tunes sent via the internet. Good luck and keep us posted on how it comes along

[RobbyMartin]

OK, here's apparently what I'm ending up with....a 1997 5.4L from an Expedition with 71,000 miles on it.

Now my question is....will there be any complications if I want to buy a Gryphon for a '97 5.4L engine that replaced an '02 4.6L?

I don't know if this helps but here's what the valve cover sticker reads:
7G896AB
Ford Winsor Ontario Canada
*963200575*
417 11-15-96 5.4L

I just want to make sure that I can get aftermarket parts (underdrive pulleys, intake, headers, etc) and get a Gyphon for this year motor without any conflicts with the difference in years.

[Power Hungry]

I am not aware of any significant differences between those years, although I've never really looked very closely at them. Mechanically, you'll have to break out the diagrams and see. As for the tuning, it's not too huge a deal. A couple light mods and it should be pretty straightforward.

Nice writeup, Dan. :) You'll be getting some play money for your efforts. :2thumbs:

[Jackpine]

And Dan, I'm copying your contribution to our new Resource Library! Very nice bit of information! Thanks bunches! :2thumbs:

- Jack

[CageFighter_Dan]

glad to be of any help :2thumbs:

[RobbyMartin]

I am no mechanic but I am now officially ticked off! :cursin:

After reading various posts from this and other Ford Truck sites, I now know my mechanic does not have a clue anymore. :shrug: He simply bit off more than he could chew and is scambling to make this engine run BUT it won't crank up because of the anti-theft (PATS) device. The fuel system is shut down and the mechanic won't believe anything I have read about this issue.

He installed the '97 engine, harness and ECM that wasn't equipped with PATS into my 2002 truck that still has the original PATS device installed. Correct me if I read things wrong but isn't this a problem? Doesn't the ECM and the PATS have to communicate with each other in order to start? I need help...more like he needs help. I'm ready to tow this truck back home and try to get it right myself.:help:

[CageFighter_Dan]

With a tuner you should be able turn off/ or bypass the pats system, once that is done the fuel situation should be fine, as well check the 30 amp mega fuse in the engine bay on the drivers side, by the cruise control module, I forget the number of its position but it controls power to the pcm as well

[Power Hungry]

The PATS system, as far as vehicle disabling goes, is controlled by the PCM. If the PCM is NOT a PATS enabled PCM, it's not the reason it won't start. If you can let me know what the base PCM code (Part number or HEX Code) is, I can tell you if it is a PATS style PCM or not. It is basically a single switch in the calibration that either accepts or ignores the PATS controller.

Let me know what you come up with.

[RobbyMartin]

The PATS system, as far as vehicle disabling goes, is controlled by the PCM. If the PCM is NOT a PATS enabled PCM, it's not the reason it won't start. If you can let me know what the base PCM code (Part number or HEX Code) is, I can tell you if it is a PATS style PCM or not. It is basically a single switch in the calibration that either accepts or ignores the PATS controller.

Let me know what you come up with.

Bill and Dan,
Thanks for the advice. Too bad my mechanic won't listen. It's like he has to come up with the answer himself or its meaningless, but I'll have him check all fuses. When the truck wouldn't start and the Anti-Theft light was on he thought it was the 5.4 ECM so he was going to put the original 4.6 ECM back in and then call me. Well he didn't and when I got a hold of him the next day he told me he had come across an ECM from an '01 and an '03. He still hasn't called, which means he is stumped. Where is the HEX key located so I can get it to you? Does it have certain numbers or letters? What would be the best suggestion with the ECM's? Should I use the orig. 4.6 or the 5.4?

I'm going to purchase the Gryphon but wouldn't it be wise to make sure the truck is up and running before I do?

[Power Hungry]

The PCM connector has a sticker on it that looks like this:

http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/php/images/pcm/pcm_sticker_sm.jpg

The XLE4 type number is what I need. Being a 97 PCM, it should read FOU1 or something like that. It will ALWAYS be 3 letters followed by 1 number. I can also use the part number (in this case, F81F-12A650-BF) to identify the PCM.

Let me know what you can come up with on that.

In regards to the PATS, if the PCM is NOT a PATS enabled PCM, then it is NOT the reason the truck won't start... despite the blinking THEFT light. As I mentioned, the PCM has final say on THEFT mode. All the blinking light tells you at this point is that the PATS module is unable to communicate with the PCM.

If this guy won't listen to you, maybe he'll listen to one of us. I don't want to tell anyone how to do your job, but there are those of us who have been around this block a few times. There's no shame in getting help and hopefully he won't let his ego get in the way of getting your truck up and running. Dan has already done the swap and I have done so many one-off mods over the last dozen or so years that it's not even funny.

Good luck! :2thumbs:

[CageFighter_Dan]

you should be using your original pcm to begin with , you will also have issues with your transmission otherwise, it makes a not of that in my swap notes, it is easier to reprogram the original pcm then it is to fart around with a replacement one , i am under the same situation with my current swap right now, and with bills tuning expertise it will be purring like a dream, USE ORIGINAL PCM, you will have less head aches, sounds like your mechanic is reaching for straws at the moment, i can pretty much gaurantee if you put in the original pcm, you will have alot less issues in the up and coming stages of this swap and starting and running the vehicle

[CageFighter_Dan]

and personally i would be a little concerned with a mechanic that is not willing to listen to his customers suggestions? or demands for that fact. Who is paying the bill for all the labour? YOU! who is the vehicle going to after it is done? You! make a stand and tell him if he does not start having a better communication relay with you and your needs and wants out of the project that YOU are paying for as the customer , you need to get that machine away from this guy before you 50 hr job turns into a 3 month job and a invoice that you could buy a new truck with , and a years worth of fuel lol

best of luck , we are all standing behind you with any info you may need and support

[RobbyMartin]

The original PCM is from a 4.6 truck. My replacement engine is a 5.4. What issues will I have and what will performance be like with using a 4.6 programmed ECM on a 5.4 engine? I know Bill can provide a tune that will correct any issue but until I get it what should I expect?

[CageFighter_Dan]

That's exactly how I am driving mine every day right now with the original 4.6 pcm while I have the 5.4 engine swapped and installed, so far all I notice is more power that's for sure, idle is just a little rough due to the 4.6 using size 19 injectors and the 5.4 uses size 24 injectors
It is still very drivable! As well my shift points between 40 km and 50 km is a little chopping and bogs same as 80 to 103 km all of this will be remedied when I get the tuner with the custom pcm flash that bill is making for me, will be here monday, trust me! Use the original 4.6 pcm computer and u will be able to use it as a daily driver while waiting for your gryphon from bill or start the order process now, it will be the same set up exactly as mine

[RobbyMartin]

Bill, I'll get you those numbers as soon as I find out what ECM he decides to use. Any other advice from you or Dan at this point? I can't tell you guys how grateful I am for your help.

[CageFighter_Dan]

well from the sounds of things so far my only advice is don't let your mechanic make these disisions for you anymore, you have to tell him you want to use your original ecm/pcm which ever that was in the truck when you brought it to him, and that you will get any and all tuning needs addressed by bill with yout gryphon, all he should be doing at this point is the wrench work i would suggest as soon as you hear it fire up , drive it QUICKLY out of this guys garage before he starts attempting anything else that may affect the drivability issues before you get the tuner installed , best of luck , as for bill all he needed from me was the pcm/ecm which ever lol number that he told you about earlier from your existing hardware that was in the vehicle as well as a list of any other mods you have done past stock stage with this vehicle , ie, change of muffler diameter pipe, removal of the cats that sort of thing and the year and size of the newly swapped engineor as well the original tranny if you haven't changed it , unless it is in bad shape i would leave your original tranny alone as well, the tunes will fix any shifting point issues and torque conversion.

good luck, feel free to pm directly if you have any other issues, all these replies to posts and pms go directly to my blackberry and i uselly just respond via the cell phone as i was doing today with these ones from my job site
benifits of being the boss lol:giggle:

[RobbyMartin]

Dan or Bill
Would the original 4.6 wire harness plug right into the older 5.4 engine and components? Are all the connectors/pins the same on the 2002 4.6 as the 1997 5.4?
I made the demand that he use the original harness and pcm and he said that the wire harness is different and wouldn't plug into the engine.

[CageFighter_Dan]

there is no reason that he can not use the original harness, i believe your original motor utilized a cop ignition , what ever ignition system that went to your original spark plugs , just use that same system and plug them right into the spark plugs the same way, your pcm will fire it just like it was the original , there is just a difference in size of the injectors is all , but that only gets addressed when it comes time for the tuning, bills side of things, there is going to be some lengthening of some of the wires, such as the one that goes to the back of the throttle body , its really not that big of an issue, and a little bit of modding for the bracket system for which ever ignition system you use. but you might get lucky and not have to , non of this stuff is extremely difficult , and all of the vacuum lines will work the same , if he can't make the original wire harness work , then you have more issues then him being able to finish this job efficiently , i am in no way more then a back yard mechanic and this was my very first engine swap , let alone an conversion, and i managed to do this , so if this mechanic has any sort of papers backing him up or experience he should easily be able to tackle this project. read over my notes i listed before about my personal experience on my swap, as well the connection to the inside under the throttle body sensor ( not sure what it is called) but it comes out in the back from under the throttle body, had a different end on it apposed to what was on my original engine, same sensor, same function just different connection, i simply cut and spliced what i had from the original engine , only two wires to deal with, so the new engines sensor would plug into the original harness, you may not run into this problem , but i think you may. again there is no reason to not use the original pcm/ecm or harness to feed info to it. it does require alittle bit of moddification , but what custom conversion project these days doesn't

[RobbyMartin]

Bill,
According to the link below, the '97 5.4 engine produces 235 HP @ 4250 RPM & 335 ft-lbs torque @ 3000RPM. The 2001 4.6 engine produces slightly less....231 HP @ 4750 RPM & 293 ft-lbs torque @ 3500 RPM. I don't know engines but it seems like the older 5.4 isn't much better than the 2001 4.6. Can the 5.4 be tuned to be closer to the numbers of the 2001 5.4 (260hp @ 4500 RPM/350tq @ 2500 RPM)? I feel like I got screwed with this mechanic/engine swap and feel even more screwed with the engine specs. I am hoping for some piece of mind with the numbers.
Thanks and God Bless

http://www.fordf150.net/specs/engines.php

[CageFighter_Dan]

i can kind of agree with you in the matter of feeling screwed by your mechanic, i have no idea why he wouldn't have tracked down a 2003 or at least a 2000 -2003 5.4 engine, everything newer used alot more forged steel parts i forget which ones but they did make a huge difference in effetiency, some thing about cranks and cams if i remember correctly, i got my 2003 5.4 for only 970 bucks canadian and it was not hard to find from a repitable engine distributor. not to be the barer of bad news but i think this mechanic bit off much more then he could chew or was remotely ready to tackle with his personal experience of what was needed for the project and what would benifit the consumer, being you. in the long run

[Power Hungry]

Like Dan said, everything should line up pretty well with the original 4.6L harness. Once we know what calibration we're dealing with, we'll be able to better advise on just what tuning changes will be necessary.

Good luck.

[CageFighter_Dan]

i think bill is becoming a little dislexic with the late hours of work lol :disbelief:

pretty sure he ment original 4.6, not 6.4 lol

just had to throw that out there lol :2thumbs:

[RobbyMartin]

Like Dan said, everything should line up pretty well with the original 6.4L harness. Once we know what calibration we're dealing with, we'll be able to better advise on just what tuning changes will be necessary.

Good luck.


Bill,
The original 4.6 harness is back in the truck along with the PCM, which has the code: GKW3 and part #: 2L3A-12A650-GD

There were literally 3 other PCM's that he tried to get to work and I have their numbers too.

I don't know if you looked at the link with specs of the engines from years '97-'01, but this mechanic seems to think that the differences in HP/TQ on the stock engines from those years are solely from tuning and nothing else. Is there any truth to that? He tried to promise me that all these engines produced the same HP/TQ and the differences come from the factory tune.

[Power Hungry]

Mechanically, the engines are relatively identical and yes, the tuning has changed over the years to increase power output. However, it's not all that significant.

The PCM code you indicated comes out to a ODAJ0D9.HEX calibration strategy. There is a 5.4L counterpart for that strategy which is ODAJ0E3.HEX (VMF3, Part Number 2L3A-12A650-VD) which is what we'd end up using as the base for the calibration. Not a huge deal, except for the PATS of course. We can either completely disable it or we can leave it intact but you may have to go to the dealer to have the keys reset. If you go with a programmer, we might be able to avoid the whole PATS issue entirely by getting a valid read from your PCM and using the PATS information to build you a set of files that are PATS compatible.

Let me know how it goes.

[CageFighter_Dan]

sounds like its just up to your mechanic now to get it back to a physical driving and running stage, good luck , let us know how it goes, I'd be curious to know what this mechanic charges you after everything said and done, especially after his many issues of not wanting to listen to your advice through out the build

[RobbyMartin]

Mechanically, the engines are relatively identical and yes, the tuning has changed over the years to increase power output. However, it's not all that significant.

The PCM code you indicated comes out to a ODAJ0D9.HEX calibration strategy. There is a 5.4L counterpart for that strategy which is ODAJ0E3.HEX (VMF3, Part Number 2L3A-12A650-VD) which is what we'd end up using as the base for the calibration. Not a huge deal, except for the PATS of course. We can either completely disable it or we can leave it intact but you may have to go to the dealer to have the keys reset. If you go with a programmer, we might be able to avoid the whole PATS issue entirely by getting a valid read from your PCM and using the PATS information to build you a set of files that are PATS compatible.

Let me know how it goes.


So let me understand correctly. If the Gryphon can tune up to 25 hp then the 1997 5.4 with stock hp of 235 can now possibly be 260 hp. And with a 2001 5.4 with stock hp of 260 can now possibly be 285.
Can you tune the 1997 5.4 to be, or close to, the same as a tuned 2001 5.4 @ 285 hp?
I guess the point I'm trying to make is what year engine to start with to get the most Hp and Tq from. It seems like a waste of time to start with the '97 5.4 (235hp) if its not much better than a stock 2002 4.6 (231hp) that I'm trying to replace. Wouldn't starting with a newer year stock motor with 260 hp be better?

[RobbyMartin]

I just read an article and "Power Improved Heads" are what gave these engines the extra HP and TQ starting in '99. I am glad I turned down the '97 engine and opted for a later model.



http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/mufp_0510_ford_modular_v8

[Power Hungry]

As you've discovered, there are minor differences in the engines from a performance standpoint and this is where some of the power gains come from as the years progressed. Tuning plays a small part in this as well, but not nearly as much as you'd think. This is why we are still able to achieve reasonable power gains over successive years.

You definitely are better off with the late model engine, even with the little bit of difficulty you're having at this point.

[RobbyMartin]

I won't be satisfied until the newer engine is in and running. It should have the original 4.6 PCM and harness installed but you never know with this guy. Should I wait to purchase the Gryphon after I know what PCM is installed or can I go ahead and purchase it now? It'll be a 5.4 engine with a 4.6 PCM.

How long will it take to get the tuner if you received payment today? At least I'll have that part taken care of. Then after I get that, it'll be 4-6 weeks before the custom 5.4 performance tune will be ready?

[Power Hungry]

Robby,

You can order the tuner now and I can send one tomorrow. UPS doesn't pick up this Thursday (or next, for that matter) so if not tomorrow then it'll be Monday. I will need to know at some point which PCM you're running, but that's not important at this time and doesn't affect which programmer we send.

Because your situation is unique, we'd make special considerations for your tunes. It's similar to having a disabled vehicle in your case.

Take care.

[RobbyMartin]

With a tuner you should be able turn off/ or bypass the pats system, once that is done the fuel situation should be fine, as well check the 30 amp mega fuse in the engine bay on the drivers side, by the cruise control module, I forget the number of its position but it controls power to the pcm as well

I purchased the Gryphon and it arrived a few days ago :cheesy smile:but I haven't had the chance to open the package yet because I went behind my wife's back and bought it without her knowledge :evillol:and she has been around me seemingly every waking moment since.

I have a question.....I still have yet to get my truck back from this mechanic (profanities withheld:censored1:) because he just can't seem to get the truck started. He says it'll start if he sprays fuel in the intake but it stalls once the fuel has been burned. I think he's still having a PATS issue but I'm no Ford expert. Does the Gryphon have an option to override the PATS or is that part of a custom tune? I want to override the PATS.

This guy went from installing a '97 5.4 to an '01 5.4 and then after talking the service techs at the Ford dealership, he decided to install an '03 5.4 (which only has 62k miles so I'm happy about that).

[CageFighter_Dan]

glad to hear he finally went with a 03 , thats exactly what i am running in mine, it is a great engine, even with out it tuned to the pcm, i can't wait to see how it runs with the cutom tunes, i still believe the mechanic you got to do this swap got in way over his abilities if he hasn't been able to get it running right, even with a newer one , with this engine did he end up using the original pcm and harness with it as well or did he try to jimmy rig a different one, from the sounds of it , and this is only a guess the pcm isn't allowing the fuel pump to begin its function hense why it will start with fuel in the tb, but once it burns off it quits, due to it not recieving any more from the tank. There is some sort of communication issue happening between the engine and the pcm, and if the pats system in your truck is still functioning it would cause something like this, but it would also kill the starter so it wouldn't even crank over , thats the part that has me baffled. again it is hard to determine a problem just through a forum as well with out physically being there to eleminate problems on a check list. Good luck though thanks for the update

[RobbyMartin]

He took the engine, harness and pcm from the same vehicle. He said he even drove the truck it came from before they pulled it out for him to install it in mine. He said he heard from Ford that he had to get the pcm, engine and harness from the same vehicle and was also told that they wouldn't re-flash the original 4.6 computer to be a 5.4 due to lawsuits.

If this isn't a PATS issue then who knows what it could be. He said the fuel pump isn't coming on. I've heard/read different opinions on how the PATS works. Can the Gryphon override the PATS?

[Jackpine]

He took the engine, harness and pcm from the same vehicle. He said he even drove the truck it came from before they pulled it out for him to install it in mine. He said he heard from Ford that he had to get the pcm, engine and harness from the same vehicle and was also told that they wouldn't re-flash the original 4.6 computer to be a 5.4 due to lawsuits.

If this isn't a PATS issue then who knows what it could be. He said the fuel pump isn't coming on. I've heard/read different opinions on how the PATS works. Can the Gryphon override the PATS?

I don't know how the PATS works either, but I wouldn't want to override it.

There is a component though, in the instrument cluster that "senses" the PATS key and it is an integral part of the instrument cluster. Just off the top of my head, I think the mechanic needs to get the instrument cluster from the vehicle he got the engine from and he needs to replace yours with it. This "receiver" cannot be obtained separately as I understand it. I hope the newer instrument cluster will fit!

This issue has been discussed several times in another forum when the subject of swapping instrument clusters has been brought up.

- Jack

[CageFighter_Dan]

the main issue here though as well wil be conflict with transmission if it is not the same in your original truck as it is in the donor truck ie. w4r70 which is in almost all 4.6l that i have seen , and w4r100 in all the 5.4l if your truck has a different tranny it is not a simple tune issue either at this point.as for ford not willing to reflash the pcm to a 5.4 tune, that is exactly why i went with the gryphon and bills custom tunes, with this it has the ability to rewrite/flash your existing pcm for the 5.4 flash and running program just like it was already a pcm from a 5.4l truck. the benifit of doing it this way is , you will still have your exisitng hook ups and factory set up for your transmission and no issues with it down the road, as well as your stock pcm pats settings programmed for your key already. I suspect that that is another issue that he is still using the original key with the pats transponder in it from the original truck but attempting to start the engine with the new pcm which has not been scanned and programmed for this key, the other issue i mentioned before which is quite easy to over look, "i did and put a new fuel pump in the truck because of it" was a blown 30amp mega fuse ini the engine compartment that controls over all power up to the pcm , and with it working on my vehicle gave me the exact same symptoms of a pooched fuel pump assembly, i changed the pump then after realized the fuse.Like i was mentioning at the beginning , use your stock pcm and harness and use the gryphon for a stock pcm flash to 5.4 settings from the 4.6 ones and it will save you alot of grief down the road, this all that you are experiencing now, is that same said grief that i was trying to prewarn you about before the project took off, ford as well told me when i was in the planning and searching stage of my project that i would also have to change my pcm and harness to match pcm, after more research and not just taking their word for it, i found out from others that had done the actual swap successfully that i could use my stock and was better off to do so to prevent potential conflict between pcm's and sensors from the swap. That it is easier for a tuner to reflash/program a stock pcm then it is to track down all the other stuff from the donor vehicle to make it work with the swap set up. With this there would be no need to change clusters/ tranny/ key transponders, coding for said key, and other compatibilty issues. But i have mentioned this at numerous accations, and at the beginning stage of your swap. Don't really know what more to say other then smack your mechanic upside the head and say LISTEN TO WHAT I WANT , not what you think needs to happen or what ford themselves tell you . Ford does not support doing the swap since they will not touch any aspect of it due to liabilities of engine and component reliability warranty. This is why no one sends their trucks to ford in order to do a swap like these. I have found from personal experience that ford was very reluctant to give any advise or service work in any way with my truck once i mentioned the project i was undertaking. But i will leave this responce as this with a quote i learned from my grandfather and find myself leaning against quite often as i get older " Learn from other peoples mistakes, cause you won't live long enough to make them all yourself"

[RobbyMartin]

Bill,
I ordered the Gryphon and I received it weeks ago but I didn't have the truck in my possession until tonight when I had it towed from the mechanic who was working on it. Because of that, I haven't had the opportunity to install it yet. Plus, it's still not running. Well, technically it runs, but it wont start with the key. It starts only with a remote starter connected to the solenoid. With the key everything seems to work normal except it won't fire up. It'll crank but wont fire. The mechanic swears its the PATS but who really whos.

You have been waiting for me to get back to you when I was certain as to which PCM the mechanic actually used. This is the one:
HEX: GKW3 and part #: 2L3A-12A650-GD

I would like to disable the PATS with the custom tune that I ordered to see if it cures this issue. I have been without this truck for 2 months so I can't wait to get it running.

Thanks