Tuning Experience Levels?

[theSLEEPER]

I've heard about a drop-down tab on Minotaur that can adjust your "difficulty" if you will.

How many options are there? And could anyone conjure me up a few screenshots to show the difference?

[cleatus12r]

Yes.

There is a drop-down list that includes "basic", "advanced", "expert", and "genius".

Basically ( :hehe: ), the "basic" level lists all of the basic tuning parameters, maps, and functions that a beginner would need. The list is pretty short because it doesn't include all of the undefined or more advanced level listings.

"Advanced" and "Expert" are fairly similar. Here is where you can get a bit more of the in-depth listings.


"Genius" includes everything that has been addressed in the tuning.

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/levelshot4.jpg

[theSLEEPER]

Cool. Sorry to be a pain, but what would I be looking at, say, in the "basic" setting if I wanted to adjust ICP, PW, or SOI?

And how difficult is trans tuning? I'm getting much closer to buying Minotaur, and I need to start researching big time.

[cleatus12r]

Hold on a sec and I'll get that up for you.

[cleatus12r]

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/screenshotbasic.jpg

[F-127]

I took another angle on your last question, what you can adjust in each individual parameter, map, function does not change with the experience level. The only thing that changes is the total number of different parameters, maps, functions that you can change.

[cleatus12r]

Thomas is right.....
Just because you are in the "basic" mode DOES NOT give you "basic" values in any selected map. For example, if you look at the pulse width multiplier map in "basic", it will be the same exact map as you will get in the "genius" mode.

Good call, Thomas.

[theSLEEPER]

After you press "Fuel Injection Pulsewidth", what do you see? Sorry... :cheesy smile:

:doh:

[cleatus12r]

Either a table, 2D graph, or 3D graph. Any of them can be made full-screen.

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/Pulsewidth.jpg

As far as the axis go.....

The table view Y axis is injection control pressure in MPa (MegaPascals), the x axis is Mass fuel desired, and the values in the table are the commanded pulse width.

[907DAVE]

I would like to add that the program lets you overlay different files so you can easily compare them. This is very helpful when you are trying to learn the differences between files, and what make them produce more power, shift harder, etc.

There also is a feature that automatically find differences in maps, parameters, and functions and highlights them for you, this is also nice when learning how certain files work and what changes were made to do so.

When you purchase the Minotaur and definition files you will also receive a whole slew of programs for your truck that you can use to compare.

[907DAVE]

Here is one of my favorite feature in action.

This shows the difference between single shot PW and split shots.

http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt274/907dave9/MINOTAUR.jpg

[theSLEEPER]

Here is one of my favorite feature in action.

This shows the difference between single shot PW and split shots.

http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt274/907dave9/MINOTAUR.jpg

I LIKE that! :thumbs up yellow:

Is there a way to "Blanket" increments? For example, through the RPM, you're adjusting PW, and you want to go up .5ms all the way through, just to see what it does. Can you do that to the whole line? And then come back and undo it?

[theSLEEPER]

What does "Minotaur" consist of COMPLETELY? 1 chip, Minotaur software, burner, 1 family of definition files.

What are the "family" of definition files like? Like a "rough draft" of an econo tune, a "race" tune, etc?

I edited this post since whatever arrangement of letters you had in the word "software" tripped the language filter. -Cody

[cleatus12r]

I LIKE that! :thumbs up yellow:

Is there a way to "Blanket" increments? For example, through the RPM, you're adjusting PW, and you want to go up .5ms all the way through, just to see what it does. Can you do that to the whole line? And then come back and undo it?

Well, the PW isn't factored by RPM. You CAN raise the values as much or as little as you want (although just changing arbitrary things can make bad things happen) and then change them back if you don't like it. You can select an entire range as big or small (one point or the whole thing) and go up or down.

I wish I knew how to make a screenshot video....:sigh:

What does "Minotaur" consist of COMPLETELY? 1 chip, Minotaur software, burner, 1 family of definition files.

What are the "family" of definition files like? Like a "rough draft" of an econo tune, a "race" tune, etc?

It comes with the Minotaur program, the user license, a burner, a chip, a definition file (that's what gives you the actual nomenclature in the tables and sets up the proper addressing of the binary) and a few calibration files to get you started. For the most part, I think Bill just copies and pastes about half a dozen calibrations from his computer for that definition file and emails them to you.....and these are ACTUAL tunes that he sells. You get the real deal.

[theSLEEPER]

PW is factored by? MAP? TPS? I'm going to need a guide for the X and Y axis... :doh:

[cleatus12r]

PW is factored by? MAP? TPS? I'm going to need a guide for the X and Y axis... :doh:

http://forum.gopowerhungry.com/28679-post9.html

http://www.intmath.com/Vectors/235-3D-vector.gif

The screenshot Dave put up has the X axis (0-100) as Mass Fuel Desired (basically determined by accelerator pedal position). The Y axis (2.6-21) is Injection control pressure in Megapascals. The Z axis (0-5) is base pulse width in milliseconds.

For pressure reference, 1 MPa is 145 PSI.

[theSLEEPER]

OK. I'm getting it now. MFD is TPS input, based on how the pedal is scaled? And 21 MPa is 3045psi?

OK. If that's right... I'm somewhat confused again...

On your 3D fuel injection PW table, it looks like ICP is going down as throttle input and PW is going up? Is that right?

[cleatus12r]

OK. I'm getting it now. MFD is TPS input, based on how the pedal is scaled? And 21 MPa is 3045psi?

OK. If that's right... I'm somewhat confused again...

On your 3D fuel injection PW table, it looks like ICP is going down as throttle input and PW is going up? Is that right?


Here are a couple nondescript scenarios that get to the same point.....

If the ICP is raised from 1400 PSI to 2500 PSI, the actual commanded pulse width HAS to decrease to maintain the same MFD. This is because a higher ICP is going to cause an injection of more fuel at higher pressures for a given pulse width.


If the Mass Fuel Desired is raised with a constant ICP, then the pulse width HAS to increase. It is not possible to inject more fuel while keeping a constant ICP unless the injector is commanded to squirt more fuel.

Don't get hung up on thinking that Mass Fuel Desired is another term for accelerator pedal position......
The MFD map is based on accelerator pedal position and RPM.

This is enough to make a guy crazy sometimes!! :crazy::crazy::crazy:

[theSLEEPER]

After looking at the tables longer, and thinking about it more... I realize.........













I'm more confused than ever.... :doh:


http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/ohmydodge/Minotaur.jpg

[907DAVE]

Going "up" in that direction happens when RPM/Pedal position increases, but in reality I don't think things really move in that direction.

The 3D graphs are a little confusing........look at it again in the 2D and it should be a little more clear.


Cody, should be along to elaborate a bit.:smiley_roll1:

[cleatus12r]

Hey now.

The purple arrow direction is achieved by commanding higher PW at lower injection pressure. It hasn't got a whole lot of anything to do with RPM (except if you're looking at the MFD......but even that can be high at a low RPM or low at a high RPM; it all depends on load).

More to come...WITH PICS!!

[cleatus12r]

Here you go. Bonus points (gameroom cash) to the winner! Here's a hint: You will HAVE to look at two other maps to come to a conclusion. Oh, and this is at operating temp (no interference by the pulse width multiplier map). And since you can't get an exact number just from the maps, I'll take a certain range within a tenth.

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/PWquestion.jpg

[907DAVE]

1.3 ms

[cleatus12r]

Yep. Good thing I didn't tell you to show your work. It is somewhere between 1.2 and 1.3 ms.

I'll get Corey on the mission of giving you a few hundred dollars you can blow on blackjack. I know how you LOVE that game.

Just out of curiosity, was the question helpful?

[cleatus12r]

Just for comparison, here's another tuning company's 100 HP tune. This is not meant to be a bash, but some food for thought.

With stock injectors I leave this map alone. Tuning for EOT makes a lot more sense to me instead of adding fuel this way:
http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/pwquestion2.jpg

[907DAVE]

Yep. Good thing I didn't tell you to show your work. It is somewhere between 1.2 and 1.3 ms.

Just out of curiosity, was the question helpful?

All the work I did was write three number on my tool box............. 27mg/st, 1800psi, 12.41mpa(had to convert it grr......).

But for giggles......

http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt274/907dave9/0_13.jpg

Sorry, I am bored as hell today........waiting for a phone call.

I like a challenge, but that was not fair for everyone else.......Im OK with that though.....more $ for me.:hehe:

[907DAVE]

That PW map looks insane!

What is the point of having close to 8ms of PW?

Don't the stock injectors empty in around 4ms?

[cleatus12r]

Doing the math on that map shows that the PCM-commanded injector pulse width exceeded the IDM's capability severely under high load/RPM situations. This thing would fart and pop terribly with any decent amount accelerator input at high RPM.

8 ms is very excessive, even with low injection pressures. However, unless something is wrong with the truck, you won't be at 100 MFD and 435 PSI of HPO. Interestingly, the IDM is capable of supplying up to 19.22 ms at 750 RPM. You certainly couldn't run that much and have a driveable truck though. Conversely, the IDM is capable of running only 3.7 ms at 3350 RPM without having issues. Another thing to keep in mind is that unless you have your MFD vs. Boost map allowing 100 anywhere, you really won't get 100 MFD commanded anyway and that last tune I showed you has 100 across the board.

[theSLEEPER]

Wow, I'm so lost as to what was being asked, and how Dave came to the answer... I thought I had a grasp on this stuff, but it seems I don't have a clue...

How did you guys begin to grasp all of this?

[907DAVE]

By constantly buggin Cody....:cheesy smile:

But seriously, once you get a little seat time it become a little more clear. I still do not have much of a grasp on things, lots to learn yet.

[cleatus12r]

I'm going to start charging for this service.

Not really.

I'm actually trying to make screenshot movies made right now. I got a program that seems to work pretty well so I will hopefully have some decent instructional videos up here shortly. Be patient.

[theSLEEPER]

Man Cody.... You're the shizzle my nizzle. :woot:

I should try bugging Bill for my registration code for my free trial this week. Anyone know what info I need?

[soutthpaw]

I have an adobe program that will do instructional computer video type movies .. umm Its Adobe Captivate.... I think there is a trial on their website....
the thing that makes it so confusing is that so many maps and variables are interdependent on each others. you can't just set one variable and known you will get that as a result

[907DAVE]

Any more Minotaur quiz's?

I actually found the last one quite useful today, had a little too much fuel in a certain situation and was able to pinpoint the exact spot in the PW map that needed tweeking.:twitch:

I know you are pretty busy right about know, but I got a kick out of the last one.:D


Now only if there was an easier way to know exactly what the APP A/D counts are while driving.:hmmm:

[cleatus12r]

204 A/D counts per volt. If you have a scanner and can see TPS voltage (which you should with any "good" scanner), it's pretty easy. Just a bit of math.

Say your scanner says 3.67V for APP. Multiply that by 204 and you get 748 A/D counts.

[907DAVE]

Awesome, I will have to see if the scan gauge can give me a APP readout. If not I will just bust out the Genesis.