Scaling?

[907DAVE]

Whats the deal with changing scaling values?

Here is my 3-4 shift over stock, when the pointer is at the 500 A/D counts the stock shows as 300 A/D. :shrug:


http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt274/907dave9/untitled1-1.jpg


I have more questions about this with my ICP map, but we will start here.

[907DAVE]

Guess I could add this too..........


http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt274/907dave9/untitled2-1.jpg

[cleatus12r]

I guess I don't understand what you're asking.

Each "pointer" or dot has to represent a real value. You have ten of them to play with and each one of them has to corellate to something. For example, based on the "shape" of your graph there, I could also make the truck shift very similar to stock just by doing this:

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/cleatus12r/3-4upshift.jpg

[907DAVE]

I understand what you are saying..............maybe I was just expecting a different result.

[F-127]

When you're comparing functions, seems like the software will compare based upon the pointer value. Like Cody said, you've got a few to work with, and stock tunes don't always use them all. They are not necessarily a point of equal throttle position or MPH in this case. Comparing point 6 stock to point 6(your tune) isn't really a fair comparison being both X and Y are different. Comparing point 6 stock to point 4 would be OK, but you're not going to see it on the bottom of the screen. If you want to compare your point 6 to stock you could draw a vertical or horizontal line. Looks like at 500 A/D it the stock shift was about 2.5 MPH lower, as you probably see. So whats that feel like, well if you were cruising along at 55MPH, you now only have to push down the throttle to 500 A/D to get a down shift when before you would have had to push the throttle to the 570ish range.

Hopefully this helps. If it doesn't that's OK, I think I learned some things myself to explain it.

Hey Cody, I see you have an updated signature. That's awesome!:thumbs up yellow:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo322/tshs299/untitled1-1-1.jpg

[907DAVE]

Thanks Thomas.

OK now to my next question.

Why in the ICP map on few of my programs the MFD only goes to around 44, when others go to 70?

[cleatus12r]

That is what your last tuner did. Why? I couldn't tell you for sure. What you could do is rescale those to stock with the normalizer FN013 and try it........

I don't see the reason for doing what they did.

[907DAVE]

That too care of that.

How did changing that back affect the map as a whole?

[cleatus12r]

I'm looking at them right now....

[cleatus12r]

Ok Dave,

Here's what I am going to guess.
Your tuner decided that for some reason, any ICP commanded after 44 MFD was to continue to use the highest values....essentially causing the PCM to run the same ICP at 100 MFD as it does at 44 based on any RPM.

I could see scaling the MFD axis on the ICP map to something higher (like 80 or 100 MFD instead of the stock 70) for better resolution and control, but not lower. Bill has no idea why it was set up that way either.

Bill is actually looking at yours as I type this.

[907DAVE]

Ok... so after 44 MFD the ICP will not raise anymore but instead stay the same all the way to 100?

Is this the same thing that happens with stock scaling(70mfd)?

[cleatus12r]

Yes. But on a stock truck (or near-stock truck) it doesn't matter since the boost related fueling will only allow 70 MFD anyway.

[907DAVE]

Interesting........Is this because of the Adder To PW Multiplier Map, or something else?

Did Bill find anything?

[F-127]

Your tuner decided that for some reason, any ICP commanded after 44 MFD was to continue to use the highest values....essentially causing the PCM to run the same ICP at 100 MFD as it does at 44 based on any RPM.


Not to steal Dave's thread, I had a been meaning to ask a question about that. Make sure to answer his questions first.
So anything "off the charts" is referenced the exact same as the edge of the map/graph? Is my interpretation right?

How about when you get a situation like this?
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo322/tshs299/mfdquestion.jpg

[cleatus12r]

Dave,

Bill was just as confused as I was about why they'd want to do that. But then again, he brought up the graph of a few of the ICP maps and kind of made a funny face about them, too. :twitch:

Thomas,

I have often wondered that myself with the stock MFD map as most of the maps are that way. I have always just rescaled the A/D counts so that 100 MFD occurs at 1023 (or 1000 in your case). I'll ask Bill tomorrow (since I hate bringing up work-related stuff after or before work hours) what he thinks about it.

[907DAVE]

Hey next time you guys aren't doing over there:smiley_roll1: could we get a Normalizer cheat sheat.

Maybe just for the beginner level stuff.

[soutthpaw]

Dave,

Bill was just as confused as I was about why they'd want to do that. But then again, he brought up the graph of a few of the ICP maps and kind of made a funny face about them, too. :twitch:

Thomas,

I have often wondered that myself with the stock MFD map as most of the maps are that way. I have always just rescaled the A/D counts so that 100 MFD occurs at 1023 (or 1000 in your case). I'll ask Bill tomorrow (since I hate bringing up work-related stuff after or before work hours) what he thinks about it.

what exactly are "work hours" over there:evillol: 6am to 3am the following day????

[cleatus12r]

Surprisingly, you're pretty close, DJ.

Thomas, if you look in the parameters, the max MFD is only set to "80" anyway. It's all because of the stock 90 CC injectors.

[F-127]

Opps, my mistake, I also forgot to mention the files I was looking at, it was a DAC3/VOAA7P6(dad's pickup). Looking at those parameters the Max MFD is 100. Just seems to go against my thinking of one X input and one Y input with multiple Z values being a problem, I'm guessing the PCM has someway of picking, just don't know how. I'll likely just try setting the normalizer like normal before I re-burn that chip, maybe even have it both ways and see if there's a difference.:hmmm:

So out of my curiosity I checked the files for my pickup, MLE1, and that shows a Mass fuel minimum of 80 and a max of 100. Does the minimum come into play or not?

[cleatus12r]

That's something I don't know, Thomas.

You're right though about the DAC3/VOAA7 definition. I have that one in my Sniper stuff and it mimics the MFD map you posted. However, with my Minotaur, I use VXY2/VKAE3 and it is already "properly scaled" from the factory. That's why your screenshot had me puzzled.....I've never really looked at DAC3.

[907DAVE]

What happens when you transpose two maps with different normalizers?

What are the Normalize All, and Autoscale All functions do?

[F-127]

..... Looks like at 500 A/D it the stock shift was about 2.5 MPH lower, as you probably see. So whats that feel like, well if you were cruising along at 55MPH, you now only have to push down the throttle to 500 A/D to get a down shift when before you would have had to push the throttle to the 570ish range.
....

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo322/tshs299/untitled1-1-1.jpg

Pretty sure I screwed up in my explaination. The function shown was for the 3-4 shift, unrelated to a 4-3 downshift. The 2.5 MPH lower stock shift was right, but not the downshift part, maybe you already knew that.

What happens when you transpose two maps with different normalizers?

What are the Normalize All, and Autoscale All functions do?

From what I've tried, if you copy a map it will only copy the values. If the normalizers are different, I've found myself bringing up the normalizers and doing a "select all, copy, and paste" for the x and y normalizer. And if you load a second file up, looks like it will take the x and y normalizers from the first file. The other questions I don't know, and I still don't after tryin to monkeyin around with them.

[cleatus12r]

From what I've tried, if you copy a map it will only copy the values. If the normalizers are different, I've found myself bringing up the normalizers and doing a "select all, copy, and paste" for the x and y normalizer. And if you load a second file up, looks like it will take the x and y normalizers from the first file.

Ding!! Ding!! Ding!!

Depending on the disparity of the map values as far as the normalizers go, you can end up with some pretty fishy stuff. Remember this?
http://forum.gopowerhungry.com/21935-post11.html


It will actually work out to the computer thinking WFO at 585 A/D counts. Hang on!!!

Some maps aren't as sensitive to changes and will go unnoticed if the map values are transposed without fixing the normalizers.

[907DAVE]

From what I've tried, if you copy a map it will only copy the values. If the normalizers are different, I've found myself bringing up the normalizers and doing a "select all, copy, and paste" for the x and y normalizer. And if you load a second file up, looks like it will take the x and y normalizers from the first file.

Seems like comparing files with different normalizers is useless. The first binary's normalizers take presidence over all others, which makes the second and third binary's values BS if the normalizers are changed.

Change the normalizers to make them the same, now values are not represented right. This is aggravating because I see no way to make different files "comparable".

[cleatus12r]

Two separate projects.

[907DAVE]

Two separate projects.

yup...

[GTS]

OK so I'm just starting on all this tuning stuff and I get what some of the stuff is you guys are talking about but what are the "normalizers" you're all talking about? And what is "Scaling". Is scaling a way to change the min/max values and it scales the curve to those new values? Or is it just a way of smoothing out a section of the map? Or???

[Power Hungry]

Each 3D map has an X and Y axis that control the how the map is tracked. Each X and Y axis have an associated "normalizer" that determine how that axis breaks down and what the separation is between each point on the map. This is an extremely powerful tool as it provides the ability to rescale any map to provide more or less resolution in specific areas or even make the map completely linear. It's this capability that has made the EEC processors (and its successors) very flexible and powerful.

I may need to do some sort of a "webinar" in order to cover some of these topics. I'll set up a schedule after the first of the year and see what topics we can cover.

[GTS]

Thanks for the explanation Bill. I think I get what you're saying. Just not sure how it applies. I guess I need to just get into the files and start messing with them to see what happens. I've just been trying to do a bunch of reading up on here before I go start changing a bunch of stuff.

[jystorey]

Each 3D map has an X and Y axis that control the how the map is tracked. Each X and Y axis have an associated "normalizer" that determine how that axis breaks down and what the separation is between each point on the map. This is an extremely powerful tool as it provides the ability to rescale any map to provide more or less resolution in specific areas or even make the map completely linear. It's this capability that has made the EEC processors (and its successors) very flexible and powerful.

I may need to do some sort of a "webinar" in order to cover some of these topics. I'll set up a schedule after the first of the year and see what topics we can cover.

I was re-reading through some older posts trying to find info about normalizers. I came across this post. Is there some info about this subject somewhere I can get to.
If not how do I find out which normalizers go with which maps?