Lost

[tadams11201]

lllll

[tadams11201]

One additional item, under idle conditions, it will idle great and rev quickly.

[JWBFX4]

It is not throwing any codes ande being as it runs like it should stock WITH the performance setting, I would assume that it isn't a misfire. Please help.. cannot find anything on the web related to this. 2005 f150 5.4l

I might just be having an off morning but what does stock with performance settings mean??

All the things I had thought of looks like its been done....cats, O2's....Dont really know what else to suggest.

[cleatus12r]

Have them attach a fuel pressure gauge to the fuel rail and watch fuel pressure under acceleration.

Also, have them check for a plugged catalytic converter. Easy to do by watching the MAF sensor data.

This sounds just like a lack of airflow or a severe lean condition.

[tadams11201]

I was trying to ellaborate that when it is using the performance setting, it runs like it used to in stock mode. That is the only way it will run half decent. They had told me that they checked the injectors but will have another dealership check the pressure and injectors after the fabrications they told me before. Also, they replaced the cats when they replaced the cam phasers..I hope that they are not bad again. I tend to agree with the lean issue. I will post an update after next week when I can get them to check it. Thanks for the input. Oh BTW, when it first starts, it runs great for about half mile to mile then falls flat.

[Longshot270]

Well maybe it has to do with the sensors that activate at higher temperatures like the O2. I can't think of any sensors that would at the moment but maybe someone else will. :doh:

[Jackpine]

That DOES sound a bit like O2 sensors giving incorrect information after they've reached operating temperature, doesn't it?

I'd certainly try a different dealer.

Please complete the information in your !profile too, to help Bill. You need to add your HEX code, the Gryphon model number and Serial Number. This DOES NOT sound like a Gryphon issue, of course, but that information could be useful someday.

- Jack

[tadams11201]

After my only other local checked my truck (they had it for two days and stated worked on it three hours), they are lost too. Said they would have to start charging me the '$90' an hour service fee till they could find what is wrong. So, after paying $1800 for cam phasers and all the above mentioned, two diagnostic fees at other dealership to try to find problem ($180), paying $90 to have them turn on the cruise control in the PCM that the first dealer turned off ($90), a new starter where the first dealership didnt tighten when replacing the cats($192), 8 trips to the dealerships... I officially hate Ford. They stated today they need to 'put stock tires on it to see if it still acts up'. I only have 33's! UGH! So getting close to $2300 and truck still runs exactly the same. This dealership wants to get the Ford engineer involved but no idea when he/she will be there or how much that will cost. Please.. is there a Ford engineer out there who might can help! BTW the O2 sensors where replaced with the new cats.

[Longshot270]

Too bad there isn't a warranty at the dealership where if they can't get it straightened out then it's free. :(

Have they tried reflashing the computer since it started doing it? I'm thinking that if nothing mechanical is causing a problem then it has to be a bug in the computer.

[88Racing]

Did they happen to check the fuel control module?
It's located back by the spare tire and the wiring can get corrosion due to its location.

[Jackpine]

Too bad there isn't a warranty at the dealership where if they can't get it straightened out then it's free. :(

Have they tried reflashing the computer since it started doing it? I'm thinking that if nothing mechanical is causing a problem then it has to be a bug in the computer.

I think there's something kind of like this. It may vary by State though. I'm pretty sure there is "relief" from paying for a "fix" that doesn't work. I see having a Ford engineer being involved as a good sign.

Boy, it really sounds like it gets screwed up when it comes out of open loop mode. Kind of like the long term fuel trims are all wrong. But, I'm sure they disconnected the battery, during some of this, so the trims should have gotten reset.

- Jack

[BlackSTX]

Certainly sounded as if you had plugged cats, but replacing them should have eliminated the problem if that was the cause. I would rule out misfires unless you are feeling one, but you don't indicate this is a concern. My experience with timing chains w/ variable adjustment doesn't fit your problems either. Heck, we had seen chains so bad they were almost falling off the gears, the tensioners were at their limits and they still ran fairly well.

I would consider checking your fuel pressure when the engine warms; but if you haven't replaced your fuel filter in a while, install a new one first just in case you have picked up some contaminated gas. I doubt the filter is the cause, but it's certainly a quick, inexpensive possibility that you can then rule out..... without paying the dealership to do it.
Did you have any codes stored in the PCM? You haven't mentioned this, it may be helpful.

Sadly, many dealerships don't send their techs for adequate training, or they don't know how to utilize the Ford online programs to check for fixes to you problems. Worse yet, some techs shouldn't be working in dealerships at all.
Being that you paid a good sum to repair a condition that didn't get resolved I would expect there is some means to have them continue their efforts without costing you an additional sum, or demand they refund your money, since they claimed their suggested repairs would fix it...... misdiagnosis!

Heck, the dealership I worked at, if the customer ran into such a situation they only had to call one of the owners or an manager to express their concerns and often repairs were then made correctly at no charge or for a very significant discount. If this doesn't bring any attention to your concern, let them know you are going to contact the Better Business Bureau and complain to the state attorney generals office.

If all else fails, check around for a local shop with a good reputation for driveability problems. If nothing else, let them have the engineer look at it. There shouldn't be any additional charge just because Ford sends him in to look at it. This is what Ford pays him to do, not the dealership.

Sadly, while these repairs aren't neurosurgery, they require those working on the problems to be capable of making the right diagnosis in just the same way you would want your doctor to do. I really don't believe those working on your truck may have been the most competent employees in those dealerships; and I certainly hope they weren't!

Keep us posted on your problem, either we're going to come up with an answer or help you get it fixed right. Best of luck!

[tadams11201]

iiiii

[88Racing]

No not really?
But
That module where its located seems to get a lot of debris on it. The wiring into the box isn't all that protected. The backing on the box can corrode also.
No, they haven't. I am going to check it today. Yes, had PCM reflashed three times. Hopefully, the fuel control module will be the issue. Has anyone heard of the fuel relay on these going out?

[Jackpine]

No, they haven't. I am going to check it today. Yes, had PCM reflashed three times. Hopefully, the fuel control module will be the issue. Has anyone heard of the fuel relay on these going out?

I think the correct name for this is the "Fuel Pump Driver Module" (FPDM). The original design seemed to become corroded and would swell and crack the case, exposing the circuit board inside to the elements. There were also reports of dealers being out of these things and having them on backorder due to the frequency of failure. They are easy to replace yourself, if you have the part, and it's easy to inspect them for exterior damage if you drop the spare tire. It's mounted on the crossmember just in front of the spare tire.

- Jack

[tadams11201]

iiiii

[Longshot270]

I wonder if you could "return" any of the equipment from the failed attempts to fix the problem?

Since nothing seems to work I'd like to "see" what your truck is driving like. The gryphon has the ability to record some of the PIDs you usually watch on the screen. The 5 I'd like to see are RPM, LOAD, MPH, APP and OSS.

These will tell me the speed your engine is working at, how hard your engine is working, how hard you are having to push your engine, how fast your going and OSS will just tell me what the "output shaft speed" is. All the OSS is usefull for is if it doesn't match the RPM relatively closely under certain conditions the transmission is slipping. The last one isn't necissary but since there was an opening might as well put something that might be usefull. Otherwise I would have went with MAF like Cody mentioned but since you've changed the cats and I dont have a 5.4 to compare to it wouldn't tell me much.

Since you only have 5 mins of driving go to a nice long street where you dont have to worry about people running up on you.
To pack the most information into one run (and one trip since the programmer only stores one log at a time) start with an agonizingly slow and steady acceleration from 0-60 at 1 mph per second acceleration. Sounds easy but I recommend you keep a watch or clock on the dash to guage your foot off of. After that slow back down to a stop and floor the pedal till you hit 60+ (I went to 90 but I know not everyone can do that). For the last one do a regular acceleration that you use in traffic up to about 60 mph.
Or make it look like this graph: http://forum.gopowerhungry.com/members/longshot270-albums-pics-picture695-datastream.jpg

If your not sure how to do it I have instructions just above my sig pic in the link "Gryphon data log instructions (The basics)".

Probably wont get anything usefull out of it but ya never know, something might pop up that nobody has though of yet. :shrug:

[88Racing]

There's 2 stores on eBay that sell the coil packs.
Ones called uneek and the other is ?

[BlackSTX]

Before you go replacing coils, if replacing them didn't change the problem initially, they're probably okay, don't waste money that you may not need to.

As suggested, see if you can get that info requested by Longshot. Have you questioned the dealership that charged you up the wazoo for a ton of work without correcting the problem? I'd try hitting them up for not fixing the problem, that's far more important than replacing the coils again.

[osprey]

Sorry to be a 'Johnny-come-lately' to this problem, but I might have a solution to this problem.

What it sounds like, to me, is that your camshafts may be in a retarded positon by one or two teeth, causing the poor performance. You could also have a problem with cam phasers that are not advancing the cam timing during acceleration. These problems would not be apparent in no load acceleration (transmission in park or neutral), but would be very apparent in acceleration under load.

I would definitely have both the camshaft timing checked, and have the cam phasers checked for proper operation.

I know, from personal experience, that when the timing gear started to go out on one of my previous vehicles, the cam timing retarded one tooth. You used to be aable to tell this because the initial timing woudl be retarded when read from the balancer with a timing light. You would then advance the initial timing by resetting the distributor, and everything would seem fine, until it jumped another tooth and retarded the camshaft further, and even then with the timing reset, the engine would be very weak.

Hopefully, this information will help you get your truck back to 100%.

[Power Hungry]

To further expand on Osprey's thought, the Cam Phasers are notorious for failures on these engines. It's not skipping a tooth, per se, but it sure feels like it.

Two things can help identify this issue:

1) Startup clatter - When starting the engine, the cam phasers will clatter loudly and it takes time for the oil pressure to build. Even after running, the phasers will still clatter a noticeably at idle.

2) Bearing "dust" in the oil - After running for a few minutes, pull the dipstick and check for aluminum or bronze "dust" or "glitter" in the oil on the dipstick. This is especially noticeable if the oil has 2000+ miles on it. Any glitter on the stick is a serious problem.

As I understand it, the camshafts are the first components to receive oil and any problem with the cam phasers causes poor lubrication to downstream components. If the phasers go out, the crank and rod bearings are not going to be too far behind.

I really am not trying to scare you with this information and it's quite possible something as simple as a bad O2 sensor or something similar that's causing your drivability issues, but it's definitely worth taking a look just in case.

I hope this helps.

[osprey]

Thank you, Bill, for clearing up my idea.

Coming from over 35 years of working on engines from a 59A flathead in a '37 coupe to today's modular engines, I knew what the symptoms sounded like, but wasn't sure what exact component was the culprit. Hearing about this problem makes me even more leary of the 5.4 3V and the cam phasers.

[Jackpine]

Thank you, Bill, for clearing up my idea.

Coming from over 35 years of working on engines from a 59A flathead in a '37 coupe to today's modular engines, I knew what the symptoms sounded like, but wasn't sure what exact component was the culprit. Hearing about this problem makes me even more leary of the 5.4 3V and the cam phasers.

The more I hear about what can go wrong, the more nervous I am to take my truck out in the "bush". Let's see, we have cam phasers (sounds like something out of Star Trek), fuel injectors, COPs, plugs that fall apart when removed, a fuel pump driver module that likes to swell up and crack, any number of sensors that can all go belly up at any time, and, an electronic brain that might develop a crack in a solder joint which would render it useless.

Wish I had an old WWII Army Jeep.

- Jack

[Power Hungry]

Jack,

The "electronic brain" issue only seems to be a problem in the 6.0L, and only with specific calibrations. However, the rest of your concerns are entirely valid for your vehicle, although I doubt any would leave you immediately stranded. Most of them develop drivability symptoms over time and give you fair enough warning.

As they say, the more complicated you make it, the more things there are to break. :shrug:

[BlackSTX]

It all makes me long for the days of the carbs and HEI distributors. No ECMs, no O2 sensors, no injectors, and chips were for consuming with dip while watching sports on TV. Why, I can remember when you could open the hood and actually see all of the engine!

[BlackSTX]

Of note: In the original post he mentioned the cam phasers had been replaced already, perhaps this could be ruled out. .....unless there has been enough contamination of the oil to plug them up, or low oil pressure to begin with?
The sound he hears certainly seems consistent with a plugged cat or restricted fuel flow, but some of this is replaced also. What are we all overlooking?

[tadams11201]

iiiiii.

[tadams11201]

Sorry, MAF readings.. not MAD readings.

[tadams11201]

iiiii

[Jackpine]

If you're in 3rd gear, with the Torque Converter locked, the ISS should match the OSS. If not, something's "slipping". So, monitor the "Comm Gear" PID, ISS and OSS to check this. In 4th, the OSS would be higher than ISS with the TC locked and in lower gears, the OSS will be lower than ISS.

Again though, the TC has to be locked, because if it's not, they will always be different.

I'm puzzled when you say it won't shift to high gear (4th) when cruising. Do you mean if you are holding a steady speed at say 60 mph on a level highway the truck never gets into 4th gear? If that's the case, something is badly wrong.

- Jack

[BlackSTX]

One question. You said it will run 16.2 in 1/4 on performance tune, but not on stock tune. I'd say that it isn't an issue with all that stuff that's been changed, but perhaps something with your stock programming.

After all, if it runs fine on the canned tunes, but not stock; everything else with the vehicle is still the same, just not the commands and criteria the ECM is reading and adjusting. This may not be a physical issue with parts, but something else.

BTW, if the dealerships have been in there several times, double check some of the bolts and electrical connectors, looking primarily at grounds, just in case one was missed or is loose.