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Power Hungry
Sun, November 14th, 2010, 03:42 AM
I've spent so much time over the last 13 years helping to build and tune everyone else's truck, I figure it's probably time for me to get off my butt and put the screws ours. The build process on this truck is going to be a slow, methodical one as I want to quantify and qualify every modification we make as well as come to a determination as to what would be the best order in which to perform the modifications. Hopefully this will provide some very useful information to folks who are considering some modifications and are just not sure where to start. So, let's begin...

The Platform:

The truck we're building is a 2001 F-250, 2 WD, Single Cab Longbed. The truck had 234,000 miles when it was purchased and it currently has 241,00 miles. The only modification on the truck when we purchased it was a Homemade Tymar/6637 filter kit. Other than that, the truck was completely stock. The engine, turbo, HPOP and injectors are all original, and to the best of my knowledge the engine has newer been apart. A new transmission was installed at about 140,000. Incidentals such as water pump, hoses, alternator, or other minor things I'm sure have been replaces as needed, but have no bearing on this project so I'm not worried about them.

The Goal:

The goal is to see what gains are realized from different modifications, what order would be the most logical to perform them, and ultimately how much RELIABLE, STREETABLE power we can squeeze out of an average, reasonably high mileage vehicle before we experience any significant failure (ie. head gaskets, cracked pistons, or even a *GASP* windowed block). Each level of the build will be dynoed, datalogged, and documented and all information will be publicly available for reference and scrutiny. It is my hope to push 600+ streetable HP and do it for less than $7,500.

The Parts (Initially...):


Injectors: Ryan Casserly and the rest of the guys at Full Force Diesel (http://shop.fullforcediesel.com/) will be handling all the injector builds in each stage of the process. It is our plan to start with Stage 1 Singles (160cc/30%), graduate to Stage 2 Singles (160cc/100%), and then settle in on Stage 3 Singles (300cc/200%).



Turbocharger: Bob Riley at DieselSite (http://www.dieselsite.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=274) will be helping to handle turbo upgrades, from a minor upgrade to a WickedWheel replacement compressor wheel all the way up to a full turbo upgrade when we are ready. Possible choices are GT38 and GT42, but others may be considered in the meantime. Since compounds or parallel twins will undoubtedly put us over budget, we won't consider them unless it becomes absolutely necessary.



HPOP: DieselSite (http://www.dieselsite.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=894) will again be our choice for all the High Pressure Oil needs. The Adrenaline will be our first stop, and then either a Pulse or OverDrive setup as our demands increase.



Exhaust: John Anderson at Little Power Shop (http://www.littlepowershop.com/) has already provided us with a full Diamond Eye 4" Exhaust kit, though it hasn't yet been installed. We will be going with a standard Single Out setup due to the fact that our truck has a full top on it and stacks will not be able to be installed.

The Process:

We will first set a baseline for the truck with Dyno charts and Datalogs. The dyno we're using is a Mustang Dyno Eddy Current load dyno and we will be simulating loads of 7,000 Lbs. (approx. weight of vehicle alone) and 15,000 Lbs. (approx. weight of vehicle with an additional 8,000 Lb. load). We will monitor all pertinents such as MAP, EBP, EOT, EGT, ICP, IPR, SOI, and anything else we feel would be useful. All runs will be made at a stabilized operating temperature (minimum 165ºF for EOT) in order to help maintain data consistency.

All parts will be installed, tuned (if necessary) and tested. When we are comfortable with the configuration, we will then retest and datalog the vehicle. All subsequent performance tests will record the same parameters in the same fashion as the baseline tests. Once we feel we've exhausted the configuration, we'll move on to the next modification. If at any time we should find a deficiency in a particular system, we will resolve that issue before moving forward. For example, if there is a deficiency with the high pressure oil system, we will resolve that issue before moving up to a larger injector. If airflow becomes too big of an issue, then the turbocharger will be addressed.

The central idea is to consider how to possibly build in stages that make the most sense, both from a performance standpoint and a financial standpoint. I've considered the idea of simply installing a 300/200 injector and just detuning it for street use as this would give a person considerable headroom to "build into" down the road as time and finances permit. However, I can still detuned the setup at the end of this exercise and I feel that more usable data can be had by slowly building up with different stage injectors.

Anyway, the project (which technically has already started) officially starts today (11/14/2010) and goes until I top 600 HP or I pop the engine. I know there are a number of gamblers out there, so feel free to pick which you think will come first... Top or Pop. Keep in mind that this is a 240K mile engine and I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what condition it's in, so don't get all excited if it lets go at 575, 500, or even 450 HP. That's just the way it goes.

The Rules:

I ask that we please keep this thread clear of debris and not take up space with "Hey... what's the status?" or "Did you break it yet?" questions. I'll be happy to respond to legitimate questions about the testing process, the parts used, or the POSTED results. Anything else will pretty much be ignored.

All parts used will be, or have been, purchased. I am not expecting any handouts and I will keep track of all purchases to not only see if I'm able to meet my goal of 600 HP for $7,500, but also how much each modification costs and how much power can be made for the current amount invested.

I have no plan to incorporate Nitrous, Propane, or Methanol into this project, although I will be considering Water injection only as an exhaust temperature stabilizer. However, I'd rather avoid such consumables if at all possible.

In the event of any significant failure, the test will conclude and all final results will be posted. I have another block to work with, but that will be used for a much more serious build and would not fit the parameters of this test.

I think that's pretty much it. From here on out, I'll post up Dyno Sheets and Datalogs as time permits.

Stay Tuned... :2thumbs:

atk
Sun, November 14th, 2010, 01:12 PM
sound`s like a awsome project. it`s always nice to see results after each mod and to see what product work`s with what....:thumbs up yellow:

staying tuned....


any plans on a 6.0L project in the future? :hmmm:....:D

StripperDJ
Sun, November 14th, 2010, 09:02 PM
sound`s like a awsome project. it`s always nice to see results after each mod and to see what product work`s with what....:thumbs up yellow:

staying tuned....


any plans on a 6.0L project in the future? :hmmm:....:D

just maybe,,,cant ever tell about these kinda things...i just happen to know where a red one is.:giggle:

F-127
Sun, November 14th, 2010, 09:20 PM
Absolutely awesome. Just giving some words of encouragement: Good luck! Judging by your work and writeup on the Adrenaline and Overdrive install I think you'll hardly need it though.:D

88Racing
Mon, November 15th, 2010, 02:57 PM
Good luck!:thumbs up yellow:
Break her down and build her back up.....
Just like Dave did.....http://forum.gopowerhungry.com/1999-2003-7-3l-power-stroke-diesel/3553-907daves-engine-build-pics-vids-no-comments.html

Diesel Rookie
Mon, November 15th, 2010, 08:13 PM
This will be way cool :cool:, already subscribed. I am hopping to learn what will work on my 2003 F350 since the platforms are comparable without blowing up my truck. Good luck.:thumbs up yellow:

Power Hungry
Tue, November 16th, 2010, 10:56 PM
Okay folks... It looks like we just upped the ante.

http://www.phptune.com/images/php_truck/inspection_hole.jpg

Yes folks, those are rod bolts which mean the engine is a PMR engine. Not only do we have to contend with head gaskets, we also have to contend with bottom end reliability. This really doesn't change anything and I'm still going to shoot for 600 HP, it just means that tuning is going to be über critical. Of course, given this new information I will be making the decision to install head studs before stepping past Stage 1 injectors. This will eliminate one area concern and because it can be done without compromising the original head seal, I feel that it doesn't completely invalidate the test.

I will be doing the studs after I test the Stage 1's. I will most likely wait on the fuel system until I can get the Stage 2's installed so I can dyno before and after the fuel system installation. I'll also probably hold the turbo mods until Stage 2's so we can test different configurations.

Once through the Stage 2 injectors, and assuming that the HPOP makes it that far, we'll upgrade the HP oil system and the turbo. This is, of course, assuming the rods haven't scattered yet. I can't see any reason why we can't hit 500 HP on PMRs, and if we make the 600 HP mark then that would be really cool. If not, then oh well.

Like I said, it's gonna be interesting! :D

88Racing
Wed, November 17th, 2010, 12:11 PM
Sounds like you're worried about those rods......
If you are then get them changed before you window the block.

cj45lc
Wed, November 17th, 2010, 12:55 PM
Sounds like you're worried about those rods......
If you are then get them changed before you window the block.

That would take all the fun out of it...:evillol: I'm really interested in the results like everyone else, especially just the Stage 1's with everything else stock. That's probably as far as I'd ever be able to go with mine. :thumbs up yellow:

cleatus12r
Wed, November 17th, 2010, 01:04 PM
Sounds like you're worried about those rods......
If you are then get them changed before you window the block.

My thoughts exactly.

Why ruin a good, already hard-to-find block and crankshaft? :matt-roloff:

I knew he had PMRs in that truck!! All three 2001 trucks that I've personally looked at (built pre 6/01) have had PM connecting rods. I am not sure of the build date on his engine. But being that it is an '01 truck, I assumed it was a PMR engine. :sigh:

Jeremy
Wed, November 17th, 2010, 10:48 PM
The truck should have been a 3/01 build, so who knows how far back the engine build date was?

Power Hungry
Mon, January 31st, 2011, 03:34 AM
Hey all...

I'm really sorry that it has taken this long to make any headway on this project. Since the original posts, we've been tied up with several other projects which have resulted in some delays. However, we're starting to make headway again and I'm really quite excited with where we're at with the build. Just where are we at? Read on... :D

At this point, I've not yet installed the Cylinder Pressure testing equipment but expect to have that up and running in the next week. Meanwhile, we've completed the stock dyno runs and datalogs and also the Stage 1 dyno runs and datalogs. The results were better than I could have possibly expected, especially considering that the block, turbo, and HPOP are all still completely stock.

The following links are to the compiled datalogs and associated dyno runs. The three test completed so far were:

1) Stock Injectors, Stock Power Level (http://www.gopowerhungry.com/documents/php_build/VRAA6S3_-_Stock_Split_-_Stock.xls)

2) Stock Injectors, Extreme Power Level (http://www.gopowerhungry.com/documents/php_build/VRAA6S3_-_Stock_Split_-_Extreme.xls)

3) Stage 1 Injectors, Extreme Power Level (http://www.gopowerhungry.com/documents/php_build/VRAA6S3_-_Stage_1_Single_-_Extreme.xls)

The first two files are about what I'd expect from a 200K+ miles motor with stock injectors. However, what I found with the third set of runs with the Stage 1's surprised me a little bit. I tried a couple small changes between a few sets of runs so the 3 runs in the Stage 1 files are slightly different. The changes were subtle and done in a manner to see which produced not only the best peak power curve, but also the broadest and smoothest curves. The results are very clear and I've included some comments as well.

On run #1, I had set the ICP to 2900 PSI and went with a slightly higher injection pulsewidth of 4.00 ms. This will usually provide a broader torque curve and a lower peak power. However, in this case the results showed the highest power output of the three runs, peaking at 399 HP @ 2560 RPM and 926 Ft. Lbs. @ 2124 RPM. Power was above 350 HP from 2130 RPM to 3276 RPM and above 300 HP from 1917 RPM to 3490 RPM (just after the point where I let off the throttle). While ICP remained steady, the IPR D/C was a bit higher do the wider injection pulsewidth. However, it never climbed above 50% for the entire run which indicates to me that (1) we were not floating the poppets on the injectors and (2) we have a pretty solid working HPOP.

On run #2, I raised the ICP to 3200 PSI and dropped the injection pulsewidth down to 3.60 ms. My peak power dropped to 393 HP @ 2500 RPM and my torque dropped to 891 Ft. Lbs. @ 2225 PRM. Like run #1, power was above 350 HP from 2115 RPM to 3268 RPM and above 300 HP from 1967 RPM to 3531 RPM (slight higher RPM range, but similar width). With the narrower pulsewidth we did see a noticeable drop in IPR D/C, especially at upper RPMs. This helps to confirm some suspicions I have about the relationships between wide pulsewidths and ICP/IPR stability.

On run #3, I dropped the ICP to 3150 PSI and raised the injection pulsewidth to 3.80 ms. My peak power was 395 HP @ 2541 RPM and my torque was 898 Ft. Lbs. @ 2160 PRM. Power was above 350 HP from 2081 RPM to 3280 RPM (about 50 PRM wider) and above 300 HP from 1958 RPM to 3492 RPM (where the run stopped recording at 318 HP). IPR D/C stayed well below 50% (below 45% above 3000 RPM) and this was also, by far, the smoothest run of the three.

A few other things to note:

1) The boost (MAP) values are pretty useless, given the fact that despite the MAP sensor being a "3 Bar" range sensor, 1 Bar of the sensor is wasted on vacuum so the output is limited to only about 28 PSI. Combined with some other internal restrictions and adjustment for Baro sensor offset in the calibrations, this is further reduced to about 24 PSI. We will be soon adding a 5 Bar map sensor to allow for a more accurate boost reading as well as being able to accurately correct fueling based on boost values.

2) The SOI timing curve peaked at about 30º BTC at 3600 RPM. If we'd have pushed to 4000, it may have seen 32º to 34º based on the advance rate of about 1º per 125 RPM. Once we're able to test the cylinder pressures, we'll experiment with more aggressive curves to see just how significant the effect is by advancing SOI timing. I'm sure the answer is pretty obvious, as many PMR engines have already experienced, but it would be interesting to have some cold, hard facts to substantiate the theories. Also, keep in mind that elevated ICP not only has a modest effect on SOI, but it also has a pretty significant effect on the combustion point and burn rate of the fuel which can also be responsible for excessive cylinder pressures and ultimately lead to engine failures.

Given the nature of the test vehicle, I don't think I could have asked for a better set of runs. Based on the results so far, I'd say that my favorite run was configuration #1 due to the fact that we were able to make solid power with ICP pressures below 3000 PSI. There's a long standing argument that you have to have aggressive ICP pressures to make any power, and to some degree that's probably an accurate statement. However, the problem still centers around the limitations of the HEUI injectors and higher ICP may not always be the best solution, especially when getting into injectors with larger nozzles. Too much fuel too fast could cause extremely high cylinder pressures, and we'll see just how accurate that is once the Stage 2's are installed and the cylinder pressures are logged.

At this point, I've got a few minor modifications to complete before the step to Stage 2. First, I have the exhaust system, Wicked Wheel, and CP testing equipment to install and then we'll do another quick set of runs just to see what's what. After that, the Stage 2's go in and then we'll test the HPOP and fuel systems to see just where any deficiencies occur. I'm suspecting that both systems will need to be upgraded before we begin to push the envelope on those injectors. Following that, head studs, turbo, and 300cc-350cc injectors, which should push me to the 600 HP mark on a stock-blocked PMR engine. The next 2 months will be interesting!

Enjoy! :D

cj45lc
Mon, January 31st, 2011, 09:39 AM
Very interesting, great work! Any type of a deal on the injectors your taking out? (Don't hurt to ask...lol)

TwinTurbo
Tue, February 1st, 2011, 04:04 PM
Forgive me if this is a question that has already been addressed or the answer is obvious to everyone but me, but do you have the ability to test fuel rate (usage) as well to see if there are any measurable benefits to running a higher ICP and narrower PW versus lower PSI and wider PW (higher pressure, better atomization, = less fuel for same HP output?) I apologize if my ignorance is abundantly obvious.:notallthere:

907DAVE
Tue, February 1st, 2011, 04:42 PM
I am loving those datalogs, Bill.:D

Firehunter
Tue, February 1st, 2011, 06:24 PM
Didn't get a reply over on PSN so maybe I'll put it here...anyone? Is 250 psi difference in ICP a big deal?

Great results!

I highlighted where you say that run #1 was your favorite yet run #3 was by far the smoothest. Why is that? I see you mentioned that making power with ICP less than 3000 is a good thing but is there really that big of a difference between 2900 psi and 3150 psi? (Yah, I know...250 psi, right? Duh...). Does that 250 psi difference make a difference in the longevity of hard parts or the oil or both - or will it not even be noticeable over the long haul? With all three runs being within 6 peak hp of each other it seems like the smoothest and broadest curve would be desirable?

Was the turbo completely stock? It looked like you were hitting a max of ~22lbs boost according to the map sensor but that looks like it was a "tuned" max. What kind of boost numbers did you see?

After exchanging PM's with Cody it seems he is very impressed with the "streetability" of the stage 1's and these tunes and has me pretty well sold on going this route, for MY purposes, in the near future.

Good Stuff.

cleatus12r
Tue, February 1st, 2011, 07:36 PM
Is 250 psi difference in ICP a big deal?


Was the turbo completely stock? It looked like you were hitting a max of ~22lbs boost according to the map sensor but that looks like it was a "tuned" max. What kind of boost numbers did you see?

Given the "hydraulic advantage" of about 7:1 inside a stock AD injector, it equates to about 1750 PSI of fuel injection pressure.

It is a completely stock turbo. The 22 PSI of boost is read from the DLC so it's what the computer is "seeing". That is the mechanical limit of the stock MAP sensor, so it's all we get to look at. A mechanical gauge plumbed into the intake tract would likely show about 10 PSI more than that. Not that 32 PSI is good, but that's the reasoning for the ONLY 22 PSI showing up in the datalogs.

Firehunter
Tue, February 1st, 2011, 11:15 PM
Thanks Cody, figured you would see this here.

32 psi makes sense but doesn't make for lengevity! Yes, I understood the boost reading maxing out, just was wondering what the mechanical reading was, thanks.

I like the smooth curve of run #3 on the stage 1's myself even though the ICP was higher.

93stang
Wed, February 2nd, 2011, 09:09 AM
Will a package purchase be available for injectors and tune?

Was looking to pickup FU1 when I get back from Afghanistan next month. But with seeing this would be inclined to purchase a set of stage 1's and what ever tuning you suggest FU2? Great results pretty much exactly what I am looking for!!!

88Racing
Mon, February 7th, 2011, 06:55 PM
Looks good Bill!:thumbs up yellow:
Keep the updates coming.....

Demo250
Fri, April 1st, 2011, 07:19 PM
I have a feeling a "stage 1 package" would be a hot seller. Just sayin... :D

Hope to see another update when you have the chance!

audiocontr
Fri, September 23rd, 2011, 10:34 AM
Speaking of which, I am in the market for stage 1s and a phoenix chip. Would you be interested in selling the stage 1s from your build once you upgrade to the stage 2s? Throw me a package deal for your slightly used injectors and a chip?

No window shopping here, 100% committed to purchase.

jaybuller
Wed, November 30th, 2011, 02:11 PM
nice to see you working with a pmr enigne with high mileage.... thats what im workin with. although i want to stay around 375hp or so. I dont want to have to mess with blowing headgaskets or replacing rods. I also dont want to have to worry about breaking somthing 1000 miles from home! So for you to do all the testing on your pmr truck is nice to have! And btw do you have a way of measuring the cly pressures thats going on in there or the drive pressures? thanks

Robert6401
Sat, December 3rd, 2011, 04:50 PM
This is awesome info Bill. I'd like to get up there close to 400hp and stop for longevity sake on my PMR's. It's great to know I can get there with Stage 1 injectors and the proper tuning. I'm really surprised you didn't have to do anything with the turbo to get here, but what do I know?!:shrug:

cleatus12r
Sun, December 4th, 2011, 03:03 AM
I'm really surprised you didn't have to do anything with the turbo to get here

Why? Because EVERY forum expert that has repeated the same regurgitated story 25 times tells you that you need one to get there?

I plan on running my stocker until it explodes, but with 252K on the truck and 15K miles on these injectors already (including multiple dyno runs, 5 trips down the track, beating on it repeatedly, and hauling a couple loads in excess of 8-9K lbs. over passes in a tune that makes 375+ RWHP) and no additional axial or radial "play" in the turbocharger shaft, I think I'll keep it. Heck, I may just rebuild it when it goes and keep on truckin'.

It cleans up the smoke REALLY well and is plenty responsive.

Robert6401
Sun, December 4th, 2011, 05:51 AM
Ok Cody, so no turbo, just injectors and tuning. You mention towing 8-9k lbs. What about 13-14k lbs, how long do you think the stock turbo will last?

turbosuzuki
Sun, December 4th, 2011, 10:44 AM
Lots of great info because i want to make 400hp one day in my 02.

I was looking at a 38r a set of hybrids and a srp1 plus a rr and custom tunes.
Oh valve body and converter for tranny :)

cleatus12r
Sun, December 4th, 2011, 02:21 PM
Ok Cody, so no turbo, just injectors and tuning. You mention towing 8-9k lbs. What about 13-14k lbs, how long do you think the stock turbo will last?

Oh crud, this is Bill's thread. Maybe I should read the title before I go spouting off just because it's had a new post. :matt-roloff: I'm not posting any more in this thread, just the Bill vs. Cody thread.

I haven't had a chance to pull more than 9K lbs. since I've been home this year. I used to pull that kind of weight regularly back when I had a wife with horses......

That being said, I don't think that the truck would physically have any problems with that kind of weight, but I would absolutely NEED to get a different turbocharger or I would have to drive in 3rd gear. The surge is terrible above 9-10 PSI at 2000-2300 RPM and being under 10K lbs. keeps me at about 7-8 PSI on flat ground maintaining speed (picking nits, I know).

In addition, I'm being "bad" because of the 20" tires I'm using. They're not light truck tires and the sidewalls are a bit spongy....the weight rating is fine, but they're only load range "C" tires. The price we pay to look cool, I guess. :cool:

Anyhoo....

turbosuzuki has the right idea. If you want to USE your truck with anything above what stock injectors can give you, I would suggest a turbocharger and some increased transmission strength for reliability. We all know how much it sucks using a stock turbo with more fuel when towing and I have overcome the stock transmission's ability to "hold" when towing without cranking up the line pressure to insane levels.

Have a great one.