Heres a thought on passing emission test

[Longshot270]

Most of us on here are aware that by returning the vehicle to stock will trigger a P1000 code. If the vehicle gets inspected with the code it will most likely fail. I know that this code will come up if you check for it with the programmer. So heres the question, could you use the programmer to clear the code before getting it inspected? Any thoughts or experiences?

[88Racing]

Most of us on here are aware that by returning the vehicle to stock will trigger a P1000 code. If the vehicle gets inspected with the code it will most likely fail. I know that this code will come up if you check for it with the programmer. So heres the question, could you use the programmer to clear the code before getting it inspected? Any thoughts or experiences?

Nope.
Can't be done.
Its a drivablity code.
The vehicle must be operated for x amount of miles(approx 50) at y amount of speed(varying) in order for the code to clear.
Not unless you have access to ford scanning equipment and software and I don't know if that would even work?

[Longshot270]

I've also noticed that the code doesn't come up on the gryphon when programming from stock (with P1000) to my custom tune. Could it be that the gryphon isn't picking it up?

[88Racing]

I believe that it only happens when you go back to stock. The pcm is at a relearning point and needs to build its files again which unfortunately the gryphon doesn't store. Going to a custom or a canned tune the first time it may happen but after that the gryphon has built files and stored them so that code won't come up then.

[Power Hungry]

I've also noticed that the code doesn't come up on the gryphon when programming from stock (with P1000) to my custom tune. Could it be that the gryphon isn't picking it up?

Um... there are reasons for that which should be fairly obvious. :whistle1:

[Jackpine]

Being able to clear the P1000 code after returning to stock would kind of negate the whole "learning strategy" thing Ford built into the PCM so that it would perform the way Ford wants (to pass emissions "exhaust gas sniffers").

But, I'm going to stick my neck out and "voice" what I think is the "obvious" point that Bill mentioned, since I think it's kind of subtle. If the P1000 code was set when loading a custom (or canned tune), the PCM would try to bring everything (emissions-wise) back to the stock tune, and it would do that in about 50 miles of driving, negating much of the custom tune.

There are several posters over on f150online who don't see this possibility and have said they don't think custom tunes are worth anything because of the drive cycle, relearn thing. I think Bill has just shown you how they are wrong.

And, I hadn't thought much about this until reading this thread. Thanks for educating an old dog, Bill! :2thumbs:

- Jack

[Power Hungry]

One thing about drive cycles and relearn procedures is that they handle a relatively specific set of driving conditions... Mainly "closed loop" light to mid throttle fuel curves. Open loop fuel, timing curves, camshaft curves, shifting (points, not pressure), torque management and other functions are not controlled by the relearn procedures. Timing is controlled by knock sensors, but that's another story.

Much of the perceptible performance gains under hard acceleration come from timing curve and open loop fuel curve adjustments. Much of the fuel economy gains come from timing curve adjustments and changes to shifting strategies. At cruise, there is little fuel change outside of correcting for CAI discrepancies. This is why we can make more power and still be able to pass emissions test with ease. Modest timing curve adjustments can lead to reasonable improvements in fuel economy, but it also weighs heavily on fuel quality and octane. I have seen as much as a 2-3 MPG difference in fuel economy depending on which brand of gas I run or which station I fill up from. Performance difference is negligible though, at least for the old butt-dyno. The Expy always runs like a scalded dog.

Now... don't ya feel smarter? ;)

[shotgun]

Yes I do. Everyday I lurk, I learn more good stuff. :2thumbs:

Problem is I have limited HDD space so pretty soon I'm going to have to clean the old bionic hard drive...

[Longshot270]

Hehe, I was wondering where my last post was going to make this thread end up. Now I'm glad I did go out on a limb with a very basic question. I think we got some useful information for what would have been a deadly question on many of the other forums. I like having the "best case scenario" play out here, even when I had already suspected the answer.:thumbsup:

Haha shotgun, I know what its like. If I clicked "submit" to every reply I almost made, I would probably have a thousand posts.

[88Racing]

Hehe, I was wondering where my last post was going to make this thread end up. Now I'm glad I did go out on a limb with a very basic question. I think we got some useful information for what would have been a deadly question on many of the other forums. I like having the "best case scenario" play out here, even when I had already suspected the answer.:thumbsup:

Haha shotgun, I know what its like. If I clicked "submit" to every reply I almost made, I would probably have a thousand posts.

That definately would have been a "Fresh Meat" post in some of the other forums.
But in some of the other forums and their mile long threads it's hard to learn and utilize anything due to the thread crappers and other BS antics that goes on in them.
Good thing we are NICE around here!

[Longshot270]

That definately would have been a "Fresh Meat" post in some of the other forums.
But in some of the other forums and their mile long threads it's hard to learn and utilize anything due to the thread crappers and other BS antics that goes on in them.
Good thing we are NICE around here!
...and intelligent, thats the biggie! :thumbsup:
Hehe, yeah I figured that a "Fresh Meat" post would lure the Mintaur out while we all get to feast on some juicy information.

^....hey, sounds lame now but I guarantee it seemed pretty good when I typed it the first time. :hehe:

Any other secrets about the tunes in reguards to drive cycles and emission?
(...or like which button combination to push to make jet engines come up and light for some extra passing power?)

[88Racing]

...and intelligent, thats the biggie! :thumbsup:
Hehe, yeah I figured that a "Fresh Meat" post would lure the Mintaur out while we all get to feast on some juicy information.

^....hey, sounds lame now but I guarantee it seemed pretty good when I typed it the first time. :hehe:

Any other secrets about the tunes in reguards to drive cycles and emission?
(...or like which button combination to push to make jet engines come up and light for some extra passing power?)
Looks like your truck!

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=UZU6NTaZ2Ig&client=mv-google
UZU6NTaZ2Ig
you asked and you shall receive!

[Jackpine]

Back to another question for the Mad Doc, (if he sees this).

Since timing can be "corrected" (I won't use the term "controlled", because that's not how I see things working) by the knock sensors, what is the danger in overadvancing the timing? I get the feeling it's not a "cure-all" for sloppy timing adjustment. But, why not?

- Jack

[Power Hungry]

The reason it's best to use the knock sensor as an "emergency relief valve", so to speak, is that when the knock sensors detects detonation the PCM pulls out a HUGE amount of timing in one shot to protect the engine. This will have a significant impact on performance and economy. It is much better to go with a slightly less aggressive curve that doesn't cause detonation than it is to push the limits.

One other thing to consider is that some of the earlier engines DON'T have a knock sensor to compensate for sloppy timing curves. Obviously, things can go wrong quite quickly in this type of situation. :doh:

[Jackpine]

Thank you sir! Makes perfect sense.

I asked, because again, some people on f150online have suggested it's "no big deal" if the timing is overadvanced, since the PCM will just pull timing if knock is detected. Didn't seem like a good approach to me, but I couldn't say why.

- Jack

[88Racing]

I'll just throw this in for you guys to chew on also.
With the Harley tuning software you can turn off the knock sensors. You can also turn off the heat management system.
Some bike tuners will often use these in the off position when tuning a bike on a dyno for more "true" readings.
But when done they turn them back on. Sometimes they forget.

[Power Hungry]

You want to know something funny? I've seen gas tunes from prominent tuning companies that have the knock sensor offsets set to 0 degrees adjustment. Yes, that's right... ZERO! Even worse? This was on SUPERCHARGED vehicles. I guess there isn't any need to have the knock sensors functioning on a supercharged application. What do I know. :shrug:

[Longshot270]

Haha wow, I remember 88Racing once asked me if I liked playing with fire. But compared to some of these guys I was messing with water pistols. :disbelief:

I sure hope these guys aren't letting the knock sensor control their timing. :(

[88Racing]

You want to know something funny? I've seen gas tunes from prominent tuning companies that have the knock sensor offsets set to 0 degrees adjustment. Yes, that's right... ZERO! Even worse? This was on SUPERCHARGED vehicles. I guess there isn't any need to have the knock sensors functioning on a supercharged application. What do I know. :shrug:

You've always got positive air flow Bill!
You don't need a knock senser if you have that!:disbelief:
j/K!

[Jackpine]

Good Lord! Nothing like giving your truck to a bunch of chimpanzees to tune, eh?

It's funny, I only bought an Edge after reading a LOT of talk about it on another forum, all positive, and after noticing how you, Bill, were always jumping in and helping people with any problems. And, when I got it, you can bet I was VERY careful how I drove the truck until I was totally satisfied that nothing was amiss. I sure didn't run right out and "stand on it" right after loading a tune, and, if any of the "Custom Options" didn't feel quite right, I'd immediately return to the programmed value. (I also worked with "small" changes, one at a time).

I didn't even consider upgrading to a Gryphon until I'd seen a lot more of you on that forum and had talked to you on the phone. I only made the jump when I became convinced you knew what you were doing and felt reasonably confident you weren't going to blow up my truck.

- Jack

[Power Hungry]

While I was still at Edge, we had a guy bring in a truck that had a Vortech blower on it. Nothing fancy, just a simple 8 PSI setup. They were provided a programmer (I won't mention which) that was supposedly set up for the blower and the injectors. All we were supposed to do was dyno the truck just to see what sort of numbers it ran. Not a big deal, right?

WRONG!

We got 3 runs out of the truck. After the third run, the truck developed a miss and started running VERY badly. We shut it down, let it cool and then pulled the number 1 plug. The ground electrode was gone! Not singed... not pitted... but GONE! At that point, we put the plug back in, rolled the truck out the door, and handed the guy his dyno graphs. Incidentally, the truck made about 40 HP over an average stock truck.

The guy tows the truck to the dealer and they tear into it. 5 of the 8 plugs are demolished with the remaining 3 still suffering heavy damage. That was the good news. The bad news was that the number 3 cylinder had a hole the size of a pencil in it. Nothing else to say but... :doh:

Now you may be wondering what the specific problem was. Was it too lean? No. AFR on the run was actually rich at about 10.8-11.2 during the run. The actual problem was two-fold.

1) The timing curve was too aggressive for the fuel being run. Utah Premium gas is 89 Octane and the tunes were set up for 93 or better. Running boost at altitude isn't like running naturally aspirated. You can get away with 93 tuning on 89 octane fuel when naturally aspirated. You can't under boost.

2) The friggin' idiots that did the tuning TURNED OFF THE KNOCK SENSORS! Why?? Because supercharged vehicles tend to create a sonic vibration that can closely resemble detonation. This erroneously trips the knock sensor and pulls back timing. While this, in and of itself wasn't the reason for the failure (an over-aggressive timing curve was), by shutting off the knock sensors they removed the only safety fuse that would have prevented a nuclear meltdown of the engine.

Unfortunately, because the exhaust system was so loud and the intake made so much whine, nobody ever heard the detonation. Normally we'd use a standalone knock sensor with visual indicator, but since I wasn't dynoing the vehicle nobody thought to use it. I didn't get called in until the whole thing went south.

Ah well. You win some... You lose some...