info on E 85 tune

[88Racing]

All I am going to say is that Jack and I agree on this point.

Good post Jack, Sburn, and Soutthpaw.

Jack, Bill and I have already some threads and or posts on this subject.
Sorry I can't post links to them.

Lars

[soutthpaw]

Originally Posted by Sburn

Here's a link for nationwide and state-by-state percentage spread in prices between gas and E85:

http://e85prices.com/


Nationwide, there's an overall 12% difference right now. A few states have as much as a 16% difference and some (AZ, UT), show E85 is more expensive than gas.


I'll save my opinions about E85 for another forum section...

In Utah, CNG is actually pretty popular as its about 75 cents a GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent)
compare to $2.19 a GGE here in CO when I had my CNG crown vic. if we had a decent infrastructure for CNG fueling stations nationwide it would be a great choice for alternative fuel.. Along with the various new Biodiesel sources like algae, synthetic engineered bacteria diesel etc..
Natural Gas is the product used to make hydrogen for hydrogen fuel cells... why add the extra step? We have the fuel and technology to run CNG now.

[Jackpine]

Good, southpaw - I do think CNG is a viable alternative. We have a lot of CNG vehicles on the road here in Tucson, most notably, city buses. As you say though, the infrastructure is the BIG problem. If I put a CNG tank in my truck and then travel up to Mt. Graham, I'd like to think I can refill the tank in Wilcox, when I come back down off the mountain.

- Jack

[soutthpaw]

I think this is where Obama should have taken his infastructure improvement package... but doesn't seem like it is going to be in there.... there are some real benefits ot CNG. one is that after 25K miles the oil looks as clean as the day you put it in the engine because there is no by-products of combustion... 25 or 30K mile oil changes... I can't help but think the oil companies have something to do with the lack of CNG popularity
Los Angeles CA has the largest Clean Air mass transit system in the nation. just more useless info.
I also remember reading that for the cost to build 1 mile of 6 lane Freeway you could build 76 miles of Monorail... I am a big supporter of building monorail systems too... I think they could solve a lot of mass transit issues but Politics and special interest money keep it from happening... Like the recent attempt to make the funding of a monorail/train from Disneyland to Las Vegas look like a bad ides.... If you have ever driven on I15 from CA to LV on any Given Friday or Sunday you would see how many people would benefit and how much emissions it would reduce... as well as good for the economy of both states...

[Sburn]

OK, I see we're having the E85/Alt fuels conversation here, so I won't start another thread in the conversation pit section.

E85 has to be one of the biggest frauds ever perpetuated on the taxpaying public. Left to a purely free market to decide, E85 would not exist. It's only because of tax breaks to the corn growers, tax breaks on the retail level, lobbyists, and government mandates that we've gone this far on the E85 scheme.

Just in terms of physics, E85 has ~20% less energy per unit volume. So, with an unmodified Flex Fuel engine, the mileage goes down by the same amount. One could recoup that 20% by upping the compression ratio to take advantage of the much higher octane rating of E85, but then the engine is dedicated to using only E85 or E100, so it becomes useless for gasoline. With only a tiny, tiny number of E85 stations, and 50 years worth of gasoline vehicles, it would be unwise and a very bad business plan to start down the path of going to anything like alcohol-only vehicles.

Also the net energy per acre of land used (how much corm makes how much E85) doesn't look favorable. Very, very large areas will need to be planted to support fuel corn growing. Take the number of gallons of alcohol yield per bushel, the number of bushels per acre, and the number of acres needed to grow that many bushels and you will likely find that that the US doesn't have enough land to switch to fuel corn production without displacing people and animal food production. Add in the fertilizer and irrigation costs required, plus the energy needed to transport that fertilizer, water, and get the harvest to the distillery. Corn has an unfavorable energy density (KW/Joules, or whatever per bushel) compared to an identical volume or mass of crude oil, so much more energy is spent just moving it around in its raw state.

The Middle East, Russia, etc are far from perfect places to deal with for oil. But aside from the political issues, oil generally flows rain or shine. Ask a farmer about droughts, bugs, fungus, storms, floods, etc.. that all lower crop yields. I don't have any data, but I suspect that, given the usual supply/demand constraints, E85 prices would also tend to bounce around and be subject to the same commodity speculation that already happens now with farm products.

If you want a good data point from the real world, ask somebody who uses fuel as part of their business. Trucking firms. Taxi fleets. Delivery routes. All of those folks make their monthly nut by managing fuel cost and efficiencies. And unlike the government, they tend to do what makes sense from a business standpoint. If there were any value whatsoever in E85, trucking firms, taxi fleets, delivery drivers and such would be clamoring for E85. But, I don't know anybody in those fields who can afford a 20% hit in fuel efficiency costs.

You won't see anything but diesel used in long haul trucking. CNG/LPG are perfect for in-town routes with lighter and smaller loads. But a CNG tank big enough to go cross country takes up too much space that would be used for paying freight. Ditto for any electric schemes. Batteries weigh a lot, so that takes away from the amount of revenue freight weight that can be hauled.

We got Flex Fuel only vehicles because our government thought it was a good idea. They mandated it to Detroit, because Detroit had this bad habit of only building vehicles that people actually want to buy. State and local governments bought FFV vehicles because they had no choice and because they don't actually have to do things like show a profit every month.

You really don't want to get me started on other goofy schemes like hydrogen...

[soutthpaw]

Correct. Diesel will be the fuel of choice for a long time for hauling. But CNG makes a lot of sense for those 95% of single occupant vehicles commuting daily on Urban freeways.. Great way to eliminate our dependence ou Foreign oil in the short run

Diesel is really the ultimate alternative fuel as u can make it from almost anything that yields oil... like the algae is a 50-60% oil yield to weight ratio. and it grows in a few days....
Diesel electric hybrids have the potential to get double the MPG of current Gas/electric hybrids...

[88Racing]

Biodiesel motors/fuel have by far the most advantage in the organic fuel market over the gassers. They have made the most gains over the years.
Also wanted to point out that part of the ethanol industry was also out of the farmer's pocket-called the corn check off. But if the tax are taken into effect the farmer isn't really paying for it.

Some of the ethanol producers are switching production materials to switch grass which requires 5-7 times the amount of corn. So that would not cut into food production but it may cut into acres harvested of corn.

Lars

[Jackpine]

Nice post, Sburn (and not just because we're in agreement).

I put a similar one up on f150Online quite a number of months ago only in it I was more concerned with the total energy cost to produce E85 and the harmful effects on the environment. Your points are equally valid. It's clear, isn't it, that Big Ag (Cargill, ADM and the like) are the ones benefiting from the ethanol craze and are the driving force behind it?

Southpaw, I liked your reference to light rail and strongly believe we should be moving more goods by ordinary rail as opposed to long haul trucks (but that's another lobby isn't it)? There's been some talk of light rail in Tucson, but I don't really see it as viable. We have no real "City Center" and we're too small. We're a bit like Colorado Springs. It can work well in cities like Phoenix and Denver though, and I'm happy to see them trying it.

I think I like the idea of diesel replacing gas as a fuel for ordinary vehicles. It does truly seem to be a renewable energy source.

But hey, guys - if enough of us get behind these ideas and make enough noise, government WILL start to listen! We just need to keep convincing other people that our ideas are right.

- Jack

[Sburn]

Originally Posted by soutthpaw

But CNG makes a lot of sense for those 95% of single occupant vehicles commuting daily on Urban freeways.. Great way to eliminate our dependence ou Foreign oil in the short run.

I can see where CNG makes sense for buses and delivery drivers. I'm not so sure about mom's grocery getter. Conventional CNG tanks are heavy and take up a lot of room. One data point I found was that a CNG tank, equivalent to the driving range of 15 gallons of gasoline, weighs ~500 lbs empty. In contrast, a 35 gal gas tank, now plastic, weighs what, 30 lbs dry.

So any CNG vehicle starts off with a ~470 lbs weight penalty. In a small car, that's a big penalty in terms of the percentage of dead weight you're pushing around, which is going to hurt mileage. If you want to keep the mileage the same, or if you want to maintain cargo capacity, then 470 lbs. is going to have to be taken away from somewhere else in the car. It's not clear to me where you could take 470 lbs out of the average subcompact that wouldn't adversely affect safety.

I'm convinced CNG works for delivery trucks and buses because the added weight of the CNG tanks is only a small percentage of the total vehicle and cargo weight. I'm not seeing how it works in a single occupant daily driver unless somebody willing to sacrifice mileage, cargo/passenger capacity, or safety.

[Sburn]

"Pacific Ethanol Inc. is running on fumes.

In a Securities and Exchange Commission filing, the Sacramento-based company warned it could run out of operating cash by the end of the month, unless it finds additional capital and restructures its existing debt.

With little profit in making and selling ethanol, it has already shut down three of its four ethanol fuel plants -- including a $140 million facility opened last fall in Stockton.

It is in default on more than $260 million in loans, but the company's creditors have agreed to give it until April 30 to try to restructure its debt, find additional sources of financing or both."

Quoted from:

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.d..._NEWS/90401011