Plug Change + Air and Fuel Service!?

Dixie Design · #1 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 07:23 AM

So I've read and heard all the horror stories about changing the plugs in trucks similar to mine. So I figured I'd probably have my plugs changed by the local dealership. I called them yesterday for an estimate and got some feedback I hadn't ever heard before.

They told me it'd be between $400 and $720 to change my plugs

Usually it's about $400 including an "Air & Fuel Service" that they refuse to change the plugs without doing. I inquired about this air and fuel service and the service manager really didn't give me a straight answer on exactly what they do, said it cleans the carbon out of the air and fuel systems. I could understand on the fuel side, but what carbon build up is there on the air side? Unless they're talking about my TB or something, which I just cleaned. "Air and Fuel Service" alone is $135 alone.

Now the variant from $400 to $720 is that they said our stock plugs are prone to breaking (which I've seen and heard all over the forums) at removal. They charge an extra $40 per plug that breaks to get the "pieces" out.

All seems a little far fetched to me, a little squirrelly. I don't see how you can go in and ask for a service and it "depend" on the mechanic as to how much it costs, especially at a dealership.

If someone comes to me wanting vinyl decals or a website, I have a set price, it doesn't "depend" on who I have work on it, and if they mess up an image or something charge the customer more...

(posted this at F150online.com too, was hoping Bill or anyone else might chime in here if y'all didn't see it there

)

***Power Hungry*** · #2 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 11:05 AM

That is outrageous!

I'm gonna call my friend over at the dealership and see what he says. I'll keep you posted.

***Jackpine*** · #3 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 11:21 AM

I totally agree with Bill! Completely outrageous to charge a customer for a fault in the design of a component. I keep hoping Motorcraft will come out with a 1-piece plug design that will fix all this, but so far, it seems like they don't want to. Kind of like they don't want to recall the fuel injectors either - they just want to fix things when one breaks. Makes no sense to me.

I suspect the air and fuel service cleaning IS for the throttle body. I can't believe they couldn't skip that if you didn't need it.

Any chance of taking your truck to a different dealer or even a reputable independent garage?

- Jack

blackfx4ny · #4 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 12:25 PM

Every dealership I have called in SE Texas charges more if they break the plugs getting them out. I asked the service manager what kept the techs from breaking one or two on every F-150 to get more money out of the customer and he assured me they (the techs) would never do that. His argument was the techs didn't want to do the extra work. I can understand that to some degree but it is still ridiculous that we, the customer, are required to pay extra if there are problems.

Dixie Design · #5 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 12:50 PM

***UPDATE***

Called the dealership about 30 miles up the road. Talked to their service manager. $225 to change my plugs. As for the Fuel/Air Service that the local dealer was talking about, this dealership does that on all plug changes. Asked them about the plugs breaking and cleaning out the junk...here's the service manager's exact words: "Now why would we charge you for one of our mechanics breaking a part that Ford put in your truck to begin with?"

Finally found a dealership that sees eye to eye with their customers!

Anxious to hear what Bill finds out too from his buddy!

***Power Hungry*** · #6 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 12:52 PM

Years ago when I was still wrenching, we'd run into problems occasionally on aluminum head imports. The customers would go for the record for longest time between tune-ups and by the time we'd see them, the plugs would be frozen in the heads. Usually, with a little care, we could get them out without incident but if there was any indication at all that the plug might be a problem, we'd have to tell the customer that they would be looking at additional costs to repair the threads for the spark plug. If they didn't agree, we didn't change the plug.

I don't necessarily find a problem with the whole plug issue from the mechanic's standpoint, but more that Ford finds this type of setup acceptable and isn't making any effort to improve the design... or at least build a better spark plug. It's bad enough that those stupid plugs are $10.00 each, but when I have to pay $400.00+ for a tune up (and I'm not getting Cap, Rotor, Wires, Fuel Filter AND Air Filter included) then I have a serious problem.

Sad... Sad... Sad...

On edit:

I talked to my dealer and he is somewhere in between the two prices. $160.00 Labor + plugs... so about $250.00. However, he DOES charge for the broken plugs at $82.00 an hours for however long it takes to remove them. I'm disappointed that Ford doesn't warranty this to them since it's obviously a design flaw with the spark plugs Ford choses to use. Maybe if enough people made noise about it...

Cajun · #7 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 01:06 PM

I agree, I'll also be curious about what JFuller has to say too since he's a FLM tech.

jfuller5 · #8 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 04:16 PM

Hey Guys, Price sounds ridiculous if the plugs do come out! Motors Flat Rate Time is 1.8 hrs at that dealer labor rate. Performing a fuel induction service is a good idea beacuse the actual cause of this problem is the carbon build up in the chamber aroungd the spark plug and threads. A fuel induction service will clean alot of this carbon and lessen the binding on the threads of the plugs in the head. This fuel induction cleaning is a great service regardless becasue it will help clean carbon build up in ports and on backs of valves and improve fuel atomization and flow. The carbon build up on the intake valves will actually soak up the fuel charge and cause hesitation and stalling and poor mpg. Back to the plugs , look at the tsb i attached and see if your tech wants to go through this. I dont think so, it is a real drag and access really sucks so i feel most Techs are praying that the plugs will come out and not have to go through this tough procedure. Please note that the bulletin labor time on this is "Actual Time" and doesnt even have a stated labor time because it is so complicated and tough. even with the special tools it is a b?/ch . So i do feel that a flat fee of $40 per broken plug is reasonable. The plug wall is so thin that they cant take much twisting on stuck threads. Again find a expert tech that you trust and who has these special tools if you have to tackle this. By the way i havent been a tech in 25 years I run A service and parts dept with 15 techs, Not all of my techs would i put on this job. good luck. Jim Sorry the TSB is too large to upload to the forum please search and acccess TSB 08-7-6 for all the info and tool information file is 497kb. I can email it to anyone who needs it. Jim

seeleyra · #9 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 05:13 PM

I have been reading about this plug prblem for a while and still do not know what years this affects. Am I in for it with an 07 5.4?

***Jackpine*** · #10 Thu, January 29th, 2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seeleyra

I have been reading about this plug prblem for a while and still do not know what years this affects. Am I in for it with an 07 5.4?

I just went through a TSB search and ran across one statement that said if your vehicle was built after sometime in October 2007 (I think it was) that the heads had been redesigned to take the 1-piece plugs. Sorry I can't be more specific and I may have gotten this wrong. It was easy to find the entire TSB, though.

There seems to be some consensus that changing the plugs early (around 65,000 miles) will reduce the chance of them breaking. Someone else said that stop and go driving would encourage carbon buildup (which is the cause of the plugs binding and breaking) and that highway driving would lesson this problem. Like many of you, I've been reading about the plug problem almost since I bought my truck (used). I gather the plug noses WERE NOT coated with anti-seize when originally installed at the factory. Maybe, now that anti-seize is used, the replacement plugs won't be so likely to break.

- Jack