Issue with dtc codes
 

Well...I was washing my truck earlier and I got in it to turn it around in my driveway, cranked it and an "Engine in failsafe mode" beeped on my message center. Scared the Sh** out of me. So I turned it off and checked the dtc codes on my gryphon. It pulled one - P2106: Throttle Actuator Control System - Forced Limited power. So I thought ok i'll just return it back to stock and see what happens. Did that and now I have a different code only - P1000 On-Board Diagnostics System: Readiness Test not complete. The "engine in failsafe mode" isn't on anymore, but I am still getting this code. I unpluged the gryphon and plugged it back in but the code is still there. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jerod

I'm pretty sure you're getting the P1000 code now because the system's been returned to stock and you haven't completed the required number of drive cycles (which is a good reason to NEVER return it to stock just before an emissions test (if your state requires them and they plug their tester into your OBDII port). Just leave it in it's custom tune and all seems to be well (according to several other Gryphon owners who've had their car emissions tested). I plan to remove my Gryphon from the dash though, when it's my turn and tuck the cable up out of sight - so I don't give the test folks anything to raise their eyebrows over. :yikes2:

Now, why did you get the failsafe warning and the P2106 code? I can only guess. Did you perhaps wash the engine? I've learned these trucks are pretty sensitive to water in and around the COPs. It's possible something like that caused the trouble - especially since the truck was fine up until you washed it and it was simply sitting there under no stress. The failsafe mode is activated though by high engine temperatures and that information comes from the CHT sensor I believe. Possibly water in and around it caused it to send an erroneous high reading to the PCM, forcing the failsafe mode.

If it was my truck, I'd go out and reprogram the tune you had before. Start it and see what happens. I suspect you'll still have the P1000 code, but that should go away after about 30 miles of driving.

Anyone else with some more brilliant thoughts? ;)

- Jack

Jack..I did not wash the engine. I didn't even raise the hood. That is good news about the p1000 code. However I am not sure about the other code. I plan on trying to reprogram back to level 2 like you said and see what happens. I wonder if it has anything to do with my throttle lag still being there after the tune like I mentioned in the other thread? Thanks Jack you're a ton of help.

Jerod

Well heck, I hate it when I can't be brilliant! :cry:

Again though, the failsafe mode is only "real" when the engine overheats. For some stupid reason then, I'd have to say it got a false "hot" signal from the CHT sensor. (This shuts down fuel injection and possibly spark on every other cylinder - but air is still brought in to cool things down).

Since the engine was clearly NOT hot, it had to be a false signal, and, I suppose it's possible for CHT sensors to fail suddenly, and maybe to the HOT status, but I'd think it unlikely. I'd also be surprised to see that code go away just because you reprogrammed the PCM to Level 0, if the sensor was bad.

I'll be most interested in learning what happens when you return the tune you had before. I am absolutely positive a tune cannot cause this failsafe symptom! (And if it turns out it can, I'll never give anyone advice again). :sniffle:

(I meant to add - If you continue to have trouble on the Level 2 tune, post your problem in the "Help - Emergency" forum. I think Bill would want to know about it right away! And, I suspect he monitors that forum pretty closely).

- Jack

Well...I programmed everything back to level 2 and went out and ran some errands and everything seemed ok. When I got home I checked the dtc codes and there were none so everything "seems" to be back in order. I'll keep driving it and hope that everything goes ok...not really sure what happened. Thanks Jack for your help.

Jerod

Check this. It's quite possibly related to your issue.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/tsb/fullt...p?tsb=05-18-12

As for the P1000, that is completely normal and should go away after some normal driving, although it may take up to a couple days to make it go away.

If the P2106 occurs again, shut the truck off, restart, and then go into the diagnostics menu and clear the DTCs. This should clear everything out.

Hope this helps.

Yea, well - I'm really glad to hear you weren't blown up or anything following my half-baked advice! :notallthere: Honestly, I'm not an "expert" on these things at all, but, I DO read and I try to apply what I've learned in engineering to these problems. I also never advise anyone to try anything I wouldn't try myself.

But, now I have to tell you a tiny story about how I decided something in a single-lens reflex camera I had many years ago needed cleaning. It actually did need this treatment, but in the process, I totally ruined the semi-transparent mirror this particular Canon camera had. Bottom line was a fairly large repair bill to Canon to fix my fix! :o

So, I try to reason things out correctly - but, I'm afraid I get things wrong all the time! :doh:

And, I suspect when Bill gets a free moment or two, he'll inject his usual brilliance here to tell us what REALLY happened! :)

(AND - HE DID! So, did you "cold start" and slam it quickly into gear? I can't help but wonder though, why this action would put it into failsafe???)

- Jack

Jack,

You're second guessing yourself again. Don't do that. Trying to diagnose a vehicle problem over the internet is like trying trying to guess what I have in my fridge by me telling you I have food in it. Heck, Ford mechanics have the luxury of having the vehicle in right in front of them and they still get confused. Nobody can fault you for being wrong. :nonod: As long as you're honest, you can't go wrong.

There are specific situations where a failsafe mode could be the result of a bad calibration, but they have to a fairly specific set of circumstances. Not a big deal though.

I just came across that TSB yesterday and it is probably responsible for more than a few P2106 codes.

Don't sweat it buddy... Your doing a great job keeping the natives informed and happy. :lol:

Take care.

Thanks, Bill - appreciate the kind thoughts. Actually, I wasn't too worried about the advice I was giving here, because I didn't think it could hurt anything. But, it's really interesting that failsafe can be activated through something other than high engine temps and, that there is a possibility that a programming error can cause it. (Although, on second thought, I can see how it would be easy for a programming error to cause most any problem! Remember, I used to teach this stuff. :smiley_roll1: But I just didn't think your tunes would be responsible).

As I said, I never tell anyone to do anything I wouldn't do. And, I think I'm fairly "conservative".

- Jack

The biggest issue we deal with that causes Failsafe Mode is either an overly lean or overly rich condition. This is the CAI problem with canned tunes that everyone talks about. Outside of that, there isn't much short of an actual failure.

Take care.

This morning I did do a recalibration of my level 2 custom settings before I washed my truck. When I started the truck the engine wasn't cold cold but it wasn't warm either(I had driven it shortly a couple hours before). And the funny thing is I did do a quick shift from reverse to drive followed by quick throttle and it happened at that instant. However my truck is an 04 not an 05 like in the tsb. So I looked up the tsb for an 04 it is says that it is possible to have to replace the throttle position sensor. I think I did experience that "rare occasion" but I am wondering now if the tps is causing my throttle delay also that I was concerned about. Thanks Bill and Jack for all your help.

Jerod

You MAY have found the problem Jerod. I did a search and came up with this page that tells you how to test the TPS, how it works and how to replace it. http://members.fortunecity.com/slade...iagnostics.htm It appears to be a "generic" piece of information that applies to most all units, not just ones on Fords.

But now, the bad news: :mad2: My Haynes manual says the TPS is not removable on 2004 4.6L or 5.4L V8 models. To replace the TPS on these models, you have to replace the electronic throttle body assembly. So, curing the hesitation, if caused by the TPS, might be a bit of a major operation.

I'd sure try to test the voltage output of the thing first (if possible). As the sensor moves from the closed to open position, you want a smooth increase in voltage, with no spikes or drops.

I hope someone else has another thought that might be an easier, and presumably, less expensive route!

- Jack

I actually went to oreilly's auto parts website(out of curiosity) and found the tps sensors there for under $50.00 so that's kind of weird if that is true what you say. There are three different one on there though: one for L eng code, 3 eng code, and 5 eng code and it says you must have the right one. I'm not sure how to locate the right one. Last night I went out to my truck and set accelerator pedal position as one of my pids on the gryphon. With my truck in neutral I determined how far I had to push it before the rpms moved at all. I finally came up with 7% accelerator depression before the rpms moved AT ALL. To get the rpms to go up considerably it had to be more around 9-10%. I have a feeling that yours(Jack) is much lower. Hopefully Bill will chime in on this.

Jerod

I hope Bill does too. I tried looking for the engine code in the VIN - and it's not there. It doesn't appear to be on the door sticker either (but I may not be recognizing it if it does).

I wonder if the accelerator position is measuring accelerator position or if it's getting its reading from the TPS? (And, I'd bet on the TPS). If I'm right, and the position changes "smoothly" with accelerator movement, you've discovered a super easy way to test the TPS and, it sounds like your TPS is ok. So, the next question is why the RPMs don't go up until you get about 7%.

If, the TPS is registering open and the RPMs don't change, then that DOES sound like something that could possibly be a programming fault in the PCM, doesn't it?

Like you, I hope the Mad Doctor comes in on this. I think you've done a good job in troubleshooting and reporting of the symptoms. :thumbsup:

- Jack

I also forgot to mention this thread....

http://www.f150online.com/forums/chi...t-numbers.html

This was regarding a full throttle body replacement on an '04. There are apparently plenty 'o issues with the earlier throttle bodies and they have been updated to a new version.

Hope these help.

Later today i'm going to take a look at my throttle body to see what number it is(i'm sure its the old one). I'm not really all that fond of replacing the throttle body but I guess if I have to I will. I would like to try something else before that like custom tunes if it would help at all. The truck runs fine right now and it never had any problems before the programming so i'm not sure the right direction here.

Jerod

If it's the old one, then I suppose you are looking at a replacement. On the bright side, the new one will be nice and clean!

I wish Bill had commented on what you found by monitoring the "accelerator" position though. (I imagine he was in a hurry to get back to writing tunes and didn't read through our rather lengthy conversation).

- Jack

I think that I am going to wait on the throttle body because everything is running fine. If the problem gets worse then I will reconsider, but for now everything seems to be working fine. I'm hopeful that I just happened to stumble upon the right sequence of events for it to happen.

Oh - DO NOT jump into a throttle body change with no more information than this! (That sounds like a whole lot of "double negatives", doesn't it)? :) In your place, I'd just sit tight and see what happens.

- Jack

Yep thats the plan...thanks for all your help Jack

Jerod

Jerod, I've just learned that there is an accelerator Pedal Position Sensor (PPS) too, in addition to the TPS. So, the PPS sends a "request" to the PCM, which commands the throttle motor to move the throttle, and the TPS reports back on the throttle's actual position. With this in mind, I'm changing my opinion about where the Accelerator Position readout is getting it's information. I think now it's likely from the PPS. Don't you wish we still had good old throttle cables? :shrug: Ah, the good old days!

- Jack

This is the reason I'm trying to hang on to my 97 for as long as I can. :D

Yeah an old throttle cable would be great. I wouldn't have any issues then. I guess i'm not as smart as I thought afterall.

Jerod