What info
 

I have been checking everything out on the site (nice work,very informative) I was wondering what info you need to make a chip. I guess what I am really getting at is on a scale of "canned tune" to "live tune" where does the standard calibration type of tune fall?

The standard response in most forums is that the custom-tuned chip is the way to go...just short of actual live tuning.

I take the stand that most everything out there is good, but you need to start with a good base file. Here is an example:

My brother has a 99.5 Powerstroke. His PCM code is MRT2. An Edge Evolution programmer works ok with it, but it retains the factory shift and torque converter strategy.....which is absolute garbage (and in all honesty, I can't believe that the SD trucks sold as good as they did with that garbage tuning from the factory). The truck ran better, but still shifted like total crap. This is normal, because the Evo simply inputs modified binary into the PCM and retains all of the stock binary that isn't changed in the tuning. When I put it in my PMT1-equipped truck, it shifts great....just like the base PMT1 file should.


I certainly wouldn't be upset if I had an Evolution programmer as my only chioce, but having driven my brother's truck with it....well, it's not for everyone.

Most tuners will use a "good" base file for their custom calibrations. PMT1 happens to be a favorite among 99-01 automatic trucks because it works well. It's surprising because there weren't a lot of trucks manufactured with that PCM code....and it happens to rock.

As far as canned/custom/live tuning is concerned, most custom tuning is prepared from tricks gleaned from live tuning. If there is a big demand for certain operations from a lot of people during live tuning, those parameters will be changed for the custom tunes that are available to everyone. "Canned" tunes usually don't get real in-depth. More fuel, maybe more ICP or timing, maybe slightly higher shift points, and raised TV pressure for increased shift firmness. Nothing is really "personal".

Live tuning? Hmmmm. Make the truck do what you want when you want it to......as long as the software can accomplish it!

On Edit:
Most "canned tunes" (be they from a programmer or chip) for the 7.3L are old as dirt. The aftermarket doesn't really pay too much attention to the 7.3L anymore since it's a dinosaur. What they were running 8 years ago still works so why pay some programmer to go change it? Custom tuners work with these all the time, constantly making a better product because of feedback on what works or what other aftermarket products are installed on the truck.

I know from what I have seen (I mostly read the FTE forum) that for my truck ,97 F350 7.3, that a custum chip is the way to go. I am trying to understand how custom a chip would be (without live tuning) for me.

Belive me that if time and funds allowed I would be at the nearest live tune session with a fully loaded trailer hooked up so the truck could be set up just right. But in all reality thats not going to happen any time soon so here I am trying to basically evaluate what you get for the dollars you spend so I can decide if it is worth it.

If you have an automatic transmission, DEFINITELY get custom tuning.

If you have a manual, it's really not THAT necessary.

For daily-driven, near stock rigs, the most that .......most.....of the customers are going to want is improved shifting and better response. ANY off-the shelf programmer, module, or chip will help a manual transmission truck gain response and power.

However, the magic comes with tuning an automatic transmission truck. A programmer or module (or generic chip) will not address shifting strategy or torque converter lockup scheduling. The programmer or chip may delay shifts slightly or make them more firm, but changing the entire strategy just won't happen. And for towing, having the RIGHT strategy is key. You have a 97, so it's possible (if you have an auto) that you already have TDE1, and if so, you MIGHT be happy with a programmer. A module (such as the Edge Juice or other ICP fooler) will do NOTHING for the transmission....and is possibly worse for it. I will get into why if you'd like.

Cody,

You could get into "why" for me and I am sure allot of other people on this forum. I read your stuff on the sniper forum and found it very helpful. As I posted in another thread I want to get my tech section of my website built up, so anything you want to write about would be great for me. Hopefully you will let me use it on my website.

Ty

Here is what I have and how I use.
1. 1997 F350 DRW Cab and chasis with flatbed
2. 7.3 psd
3. Automatic trans, bigger cooler installed.
4. 3" down pipe to 3.5" pipe factory muffler
5. DIY intake with 6637 filter
6. trans temp guage in test port of trans, pyro guage in left side manifold
7. I am the second owner it was a fleet vehicle that I got of a lot which was purchased at the auction from what I could tell it was maintained well and not used hard it had a serice body on it when I got it and looked like the hitch had never been used.
8. My oil analysis from Blackstone labs have come back "within range"

This truck is not a daily driver or a race truck it is a work truck. About 75% of the time I pull a bumper pull car trailer, flatbed gooseneck or a livestock gooseneck trailer.

The empty truck weight is approx 7300# and I try to keep the GCVW to under 30,000#. Hauling round bales is usually when I get the 30,000# mark and that load is 10' wide and about 12 high, which grabs a lot of air.

SO what would be best for me :shrug:

Really I am only considering a chip from three places 1. PHP 2. TW 3. DP

30K lbs. Been there, done that!

First off, if you're hauling all the time, custom tuning is the only way to fly. The factory programming is designed to cater to operators who do everything from haul (like you do) all the way down to those who do nothing but get groceries with the kids twice a week.

From my first hand experience, when I'm towing a lot of weight, I like my shifts late. I like to have the truck shift at a minimum of 2600 RPM regardless of APP (throttle position). This allows the boost to recover more quickly after a shift. As you're well aware, once boost is gone, it takes a long time to get it back on an early PSD truck.

Secondly, if at all possible, it's nice to have the torque converter lock in 2nd gear under light throttle applications at speeds around 25-27 MPH but NOT lock under moderate load until just before the 2-3 shift. This allows you to have a locked torque converter while driving around town in 2nd gear. Heat is a huge issue and with the "loose" (high stall speeds) of the factory torque converter, there is a TON of heat being made. When the TC is locked, the heat creation is mostly gone.

Third gear should ALWAYS be locked when towing. If the 2-3 shift doesn't occur until the engine is at 2600 RPM, then the TC can be locked and not lug the engine too much. Again, this is to keep the heat down.

4th gear....well, depending on the gearing of the truck, 4th gear should be inhibited until 62-65 MPH. The 3-4 gear change is usually the killer of boost and momentum. If the revs can be kept up, the gear change will be less dramatic.

Forced downshifts should occur earlier in every gear to prevent lugging before the downshift. That way there is less strain during the shift. This is accomplished by raising the downshift speed for a given APP.

I hope this helps a little.

Dang Cody, I'm gonna have to put you on the payroll! You've just about covered everything for me. :)

Nelstone,

Given the nature of your vehicle and the load you're pulling, it's not really necessary to go with "live" tuning although you will definitely benefit from custom tuning. We've seen similar (if not identical) combinations over the last 10 years and can tune those without difficulty. As Cody pointed out, the shifting is going to be the biggest benefit to going with custom programming, especially with 20K+ behind you. Being able to keep the engine in the peak torque curve makes all the difference in the way the vehicle pulls heavier loads.

Where live tuning is really going to com into play is when you stat getting into heavier modifications such as injectors, dual HPOP, big turbos (or twins), water meth, propane, nitrous, or other significant modifications. Standard bolt-on stuff is just not as critical, at least on the diesels.

Hope this helps answer your questions. Of course, you'll probably end up with more! :D

Take care.

Its not a good answer if it doesn't lead to another question!

So this leads me back to my original question if I call and order a towing tune for my application will it be different than the guy down the street who orders a towing tune for his fishing boat.

Cody- I like the idea of eariler downshifts. To be honest that is my biggest complaint with the trans. All around I have been happy with the performance of this trans. I have been able to adjust driving habits to compensate for its downfalls. I would be nice to get more specific performance to my application.

I'm going to jump in here.

Bill will customize your tune for the loads you typically pull, and, where you live.

A boat is normally much lighter than what you are pulling and some people live in the mountains. Their requirements are much different than someone living near sea level or pulling heavy loads.

- Jack

That would be a change. I work for charity so often (gotta love the auto repair industry) that getting paid would probably give me a heart attack.

Besides, I have no secrets. I like to help out....kind of gives me a purpose.

I will sit this one out and read. Lots of great info here. :thumbsup:

I think I am starting to get a good undertanding of how it works, There must be like a library of tunes that you can look at for a specific request and pull one to meet the need. I would guess this library grows from R&D and live tuning sessions. Does that sound about right?

Which of course leads to another question. What kind of things can be manipulated?

So far Ive seen mentioned

Shift stragergies
LIne pressure
TC lock points
fuel (is it how long the injector fires)
timing (I assume of the injection)

I can't give you specifics on Bill's software yet (hopefully by next week), but I have been inside and out with the Sniper Delta Force software.

Ford in their infinite wisdom decided that having specific parameters that are tuneable would be too easy so the Ford PCM actually uses many different ways of controlling different outputs such as "line pressure". The 95-97 automatic parameters that I have to work with are few and far between. The "torque table" is a pretty easy way to firm up shifts across the board. However, TV (throttle valve, which is OLD school mechanical terminology) pressure is the shift pressure in relation to APP (accelerator pedal position), so there are two ways....then there's a "solid state" TV variable.....:hehe:

"Injection timing" is another one of those "more than one way to skin a cat" type things.....and there are a lot of ways to do it.

It's a lot to get your head around!

I have the Sniper Commando for the '05 F150 right now and there are so many different parameters to mess with it is still down right confusing. After seeing Bill's software and messing around with it, I think Bill's is a little easier to use and is more complete. Bill also took some time better explaining some tuning parameters to me while he was in Utah, even though it was not his software, how much better of a person or company could you ask for. I will be buying Bill's software soon. Thanks Bill and Corey you guys rock.:bow:

Ty

Ty,

Sure thing, man. It comes out of my head and there's no copyright on it, so feel free to use it.

Why a fueling-box style module is a bad thing for a E4OD/4R100:

The factory programming is set up for a specific torque input into the transmission. The programmers spent a lot of money to get the accelerator pedal position (APP), EPC (electronic pressure control) system ("line pressure"), shift speed calibrations, etc. just right so that maximum life expectancy was achieved.

Aftermarket programming is one thing...it can take into account the increased power output of the engine for a given APP. This helps the shift duration feel stock or firm depending on torque input. Also, the road speed at which the shift occurs can be altered for a given APP.

When a fueling box is added to the 7.3L PSD, the sensor input to the PCM for injection pressure is corrupt. Essentially, the PCM "sees" a lower pressure than what is actually there. The Ford PCM programming allows it to command a higher injection pressure regulator (IPR) duty cycle to increase the pressure output of the high pressure oil pump to what is desired, even though the pressure is actually good. This raised injection pressure has an effect on a few tuning variables in the PCM, but the power increases caused by it are not applied to the transmission shifting parameters.

The higher injection pressures will cause a more responsive accelerator pedal. This means that for any given engine speed or load, the APP voltage input to the PCM will be lower. The PCM bases it's EPC, shift scheduling, and calculated torque on APP (indirectly through MFD or "mass fuel desired"). So, the PCM thinks the actual engine torque is lower than stock for any given accelerator pedal input even though the opposite is true.

More power with earlier/softer shifts and lower line pressure equals bad news. Some folks can run around with these devices and have no problems....it all depends on driving style. They are not something that should be used for heavy towing or racing. Yes, they operate as designed and usually add a couple MPG. They work well, but are better suited to manual transmission trucks.

I hope this helps a bit.

EDIT:

By fueling box, I am talking about the Edge Juice, Banks 6-gun, Dr. Performance/Workhorse, Dfuser 18K, etc.

Cody....Wow! Great information. :cool:Thanks for writing it. I just copied it to my Tech section folder to be added to my website soon. :yesnod:

Thanks again

Ty

Good stuff, Cody! :2thumbs: Especially the accurate representation of the relationship between the throttle and the trans torque table. That's the part that people don't catch when they stick a pressure box on their truck.

Wow! Praise from "The Man"! :ford boob girl smal

Have you reached the big time, or what, Cody? :)

- Jack

Hey, he's a boy, I'm a boy, what more is there to say? :smiley_roll1:

- Jack

I can talk the talk, but still have yet to walk the walk. I'm crawling pretty good at this point.

Thanks, Jack!:cool_beans:

Here are a couple screenshots of the torque table. Can you spot the differences and tell which one is for the non-stock tune? :evillol:

By the way, this is for a LKM6 (similar to, but better than TDE1 when using Sniper) in a 97 auto.

In other words, the shifts are long, drawn out, and soft at high RPM/load if the high-perf tune uses the stock table.

No clue... can you point it out for me?? :lol:

Isn't it past your bedtime on the East coast?:notallthere:

No... I took a nap about 4:00 so I'm good for a while! :P