Ethanol question.

[04FX4]

I was just wondering is ethanol good or not so good??

[Jackpine]

Originally Posted by 04FX4

I was just wondering is ethanol good or not so good??

You really want to get me started?

Rather than repeat it all here, you can read what I posted in another forum a while back: http://www.f150online.com/forums/chi...hon-tunes.html

I'll add that E85, if it becomes the standard, is going to ruin every small lawnmower, weedeater, chainsaw, yardblower, small tractor, etc., engine in existence today. We may find it feasible to retrofit vehicles that are "pre-flex", but I doubt we'll be doing that for other engines.

And, to use the argument that we're importing oil from people who hate us is VERY misleading. The country we import most of our oil from is Canada - last I heard, we were on good terms with all you guys up there.

So, that's MY opinion!

- Jack

[04FX4]

The reason I ask is some gas stations where I live have 94 octane fuel with 10-14% ethanol, I was not sure if this was good or bad, I thought I seen some where posted that ethanol was bad.

[88Racing]

Ethanol started being used many years ago. Late 70's to early 80's but it did not catch on here like other countries as Brazil. Ethanol got a bad name real quick. Components in vehicles were being exposed to something they were never engineered for. Take for instance a carburator. It ran many years on straight gas, building up tarnish and gunk. Well introduce something that actually will dissolve this stuff and jets started to plug. Not mention gasket material being eaten away. Ethanol is kind of a corrosive substance and if the rubber and other materials are not formulated to be used with it then the problems start.
Today's vehicles are engineered to handle ethanol to a certain degree and I think I read somewhere that the ratio should not exceed 15% unless its flex fuel rated. Why do you think that most gas tanks are now poly.
There are arguments like Jack brought up that are true for small engines. Makes the poor little air cooled motor burn to hot.
H-D does not want to see it's motorcycles to use more than 10% blend.
I work on pipe in these processing plants and if the tools don't get washed off right away it can start to pit the surface of the tools.
Ask the people that run 85% blend if they get better or worse milage then if they ran 10% blend.
Ethanol takes more energy to burn thats why the motors get hotter and it takes more to make the same energy potential as gas does.


Lars

[JWBFX4]

I dont believe I want to get started on the ethanol in the gas. But ethanol definitely does harm the small engines. If it is left to sit in there especially. It suspose to eat up the rubber gaskets in them and the internals. So as fas as the small engines go, it is best to drain the fuel after use and then run the gas out of them, or thats atleast what I do.

[Jackpine]

Originally Posted by 04FX4

The reason I ask is some gas stations where I live have 94 octane fuel with 10-14% ethanol, I was not sure if this was good or bad, I thought I seen some where posted that ethanol was bad.

The octane rating makes it sound good, but it's totally misleading. High octane only means the fuel is resistant to detonation (ping, knock - explosive burning) in an engine. It DOES not mean the fuel has more power, and in the case of ethanol, it has less power. High octane fuel is not a "treat" for your engine, as I have heard some people say. It's just a fuel that resists ignition under compression. And, our engines are designed for 87 octane fuel. We can get a bit more out of them by running 91 or 93 stuff and advancing the spark, but, we still throw a lot of potential away since the compression in our engines is not high enough to really take advantage of the burn properties.

However, now that I've ranted a bit, if the price differential of the ethanol blend is better than the reduction in gas mileage you're going to see, and, if yur truck is designed for high ethanol (flex fuel design), go for it! I think you'd be foolish to put real gas in your truck in that case.

- Jack

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by JackandJanet

...And, our engines are designed for 87 octane fuel. We can get a bit more out of them by running 91 or 93 stuff and advancing the spark, but, we still throw a lot of potential away since the compression in our engines is not high enough to really take advantage of the burn properties...

- Jack

You hit the nail on the head, Jack. The one thing I've found is that if you run compression up enough (or run a supercharger/turbocharger), you can actually make good use of Ethanol and see reasonable performance gains. If cars today would run the kind of compression ratios and combustion chambers we saw back in the late '60s & early '70s then Ethanol may actually be an attractive option due to the higher octane rating. But alas, they don't so the potential gains are lost.

On smaller, air-cooled engines, the extra heat generated is often more than the cooling system can radiate. The solution to this is running a little richer to keep cylinder temperatures down, but this reduces performance and increases fuel consumption so that's not exactly ideal either.

If we are going to continue to run Ethanol, then we need to rethink certain design aspects of current engines in order to make better use of it.

[Jackpine]

Just to add to this discussion, I just posted this in the f150forum:

"If any of you has a subscription to Outdoor Life, there's an article in the March 2009 issue on Page 26 about Ethanol fuel in Outboard boat engines. The basic problem is that alcohol forms a weak bond with gasoline, but if water vapor is around, it will abandon the gas, latch on to the water (forms a strong bond) and separate. This is called "phase separation".

Also, since alcohol is such a good solvent, it dissolves gunk in the tank including rust that was caused by condensation. The result can be a crud clogged fuel filter.

I would not have thought there'd be problems with a fuel filter that was relatively new, but now I'm not so sure. If the tank has been sitting around half-empty in cold weather, condensation will occur. And, if the tank was filled with gas that might be old, the problem could be even worse.

The article (not an advertisement) recommends keeping the fuel tank full to minimize the effect of water vapor condensation and to use a fuel stabilizer called Star Tron, made by Starbrite at each fill up."

Now, to be fair, I just did a search on Starbrite and discovered that much of the article in Outdoor Life seems to be derived from Starbrite's website. This doesn't make it wrong, but, it means we should interpret the information with a skeptical attitude. Are they promoting a product, or are they giving us the real scoop on a problem? Personally, I DO think there's a problem and I'm looking for solutions.

- Jack

[Power Hungry]

This is a trick we used to used YEARS ago when I was still riding dirt bikes quite a bit. I'm sure I read it in Dirt Biking or 4-Wheeler magazine.

This trick is designed particularly for 2-stroke engines because of the molecular bonding of gasoline and oil versus gasoline and alcohol. Because dirt bikes (like most gravity feed small engines) have the petcock at the BOTTOM of the tank, they are extremely susceptible to moisture problems in the fuel. The problem is compounded when Ethanol is present in the fuel. Since alcohol bonds more easily with water than it does with gasoline, any moisture in the fuel will attach to to the alcohol and settle at the bottom of the tank. What you end up with is a water/alcohol blend as soon as you start up. Certainly not the first word in lubrication, especially on a 2-stroke engine where all the lubrication comes from the fuel.

To remove the alcohol from the fuel, we would fill up a 5 gallon gas can and add our standard oil premix... usually about 60:1, or higher for synthetics. After shaking vigorously to distribute the oil, we would then add 8 ounces of water to the mixture. After another vigorous shaking, we would then let the mixture sit for a day or two. Most, if not all, of the alcohol in the fuel would bond with the water and settle at the bottom of the gas can leaving the fuel/oil mixture on the top. We would then simply pour off the good fuel into another gas can. The remaining water/alcohol mix would be left in a large pan or bucket to evaporate.

Obviously, this works in small quantities and is best suited for premix fuel since the oil helps push out both the alcohol molecules and the water molecules. The muck settles on the bottom and the gasoline will float.

Anyway, it's a suggestion for those concerned about the longevity of their small, gas powered engines.