Edge/Gryphon Footprint

[SinCityFX4]

I only flash to stock when I go in for service as I got he ESP plan tossed in when I bought so they do all the service.

As for the guys that screwed on the injectors...ack They would have had to rmoved from the service dept with some crap like that.

Maybe Bill can pop in here and give a definate answer. This very question in my head is why I have never used teh canned tunes on any of the tuners....


Guess I am just paranoid..

[Power Hungry]

This is a repeat of the post I made on F150Online:



First, most of the performance gains derived from tuning come from modified timing tables. There's a little fuel tuning, but in most cases it's actually leaner than stock which means LESS fuel injected, NOT more. Also, when dealing with fuel tuning, we are talking about fractions of AFR (Air-Fuel Ratio)... Usually on the order of .2:1 of .3:1 change in AFR. This is not enough to cause any sort of damage to engines, injectors, or anything else for that matter.

By the same token, we've tuned low boost, forced induction applications using completely stock injectors with either raised fuel pressure, extended pulsewidth, or both. In these situation there has been no significant increase in injector failure (read that as none), provided injection pulsewidth stayed less than 85% to prevent the injectors coils from overheating.

The fact that dealers will often sell (and warranty) a vehicle with the very same types of modifications (lifts, gears, brush guards, pulleys, superchargers, and yes... even programmers) only goes to prove that it's not the modification they have an issue with, it's the fact that THEY didn't sell it and THEY didn't make any money on it. That's a piss-poor attitude.

For the dealer to come in and say that the programmer cause your injectors to fail is complete crap. Also, to blatantly disregard a warranty claim as well as a recall notice is grounds for legal action. Of course they know most people won't pursue it because it's often not financially feasible.

Second is in regards to programmer "footprinting". Using the exact same tools the dealerships use, there doesn't appear to be evidence of anything that specifically identifies that a "programmer" has been present on a vehicle, at least on the F150. Mode 6 Freeze Frame data does get cleared during a programming session and I am currently validating what other situations (disconnected battery, etc) will clear Mode 6 data.

It is my understanding that the dealerships do use Mode 6 data along with the ubiquitous P1000 DTC as evidence of programmer presence to be used as grounds for warranty denial. However, if there is a reasonable argument that these conditions can exist outside of the use of a programmer then the dealership cannot deny a warranty out of hand.

As I've said before, it's a shame that this is what it has come to. Prior abuses to the warranty system have now made it difficult for legitimate claims to be covered. What Ford (or any other manufacturer) needs to realize is that their vehicle sales are often driver by consumers who like to modify and customize their vehicles. If the consumer is going to face hassles on warranty claims every time they bolt on some little (or big) item, they are going to spend their money elsewhere.

I've been tuning Fords for just about as long as there has been Ford tuning and I've seen bad things happen to engines and transmission as a result of poorly tuned calibrations. The fact is that most of today's tuning simply isn't aggressive enough to cause problems that wouldn't have occurred on their own without tuning. But as it was said, warranty doesn't pay as well as cash repairs so what do they have to lose by denying a warranty? In the short term it costs them nothing, but ultimately they will lose customer loyalty and future sales.

Take care.

[SinCityFX4]

THANX Bill!!

[88Racing]

Thank you Bill!

Your the man!

Lars

[JWBFX4]

Thanks for the answer Bill.

[lawrenr2001]

"Second is in regards to programmer "footprinting". Using the exact same tools the dealerships use, there doesn't appear to be evidence of anything that specifically identifies that a "programmer" has been present on a vehicle, at least on the F150. Mode 6 Freeze Frame data does get cleared during a programming session and I am currently validating what other situations (disconnected battery, etc) will clear Mode 6 data."

Sorry to jump in out of nowhere guys, but I wanted ask Bill something regarding his statement. After you collect your validation evidence, would you post it for the rest of us so we would have a counter argument in the case of being denied warranty over a programmer issue? I realize that we all are aware of the position that dealerships take over using a programmer (unjustifibly so in my honest opinion) and I for one would never reference PHP to any arguable information recieved in those negotiations with any dealership.It would just be nice to be able to call them on bullsh*t and be able to reasonably back them up with factual evidence from an expert on the subject, instead of going head to head with a couple oil change guys with some computer skills!
Sorry, now let me down off this box before I get a nose bleed!

Robert

PS...is it Xmas yet?...are we into February on those custom tunes? (can't wait to open my present!)

[SinCityFX4]

Originally Posted by lawrenr2001

Sorry to jump in out of nowhere guys, but I wanted ask Bill something regarding his statement. After you collect your validation evidence, would you post it for the rest of us so we would have a counter argument in the case of being denied warranty over a programmer issue?

^^X2 and as a rebuttal to those who say that the Edge does leave eveidence behind as a way to pursuade people from buying it.

[OneTomcat]

Our local Ford dealership actually sells the Edge off the shelf in their parts department.... I'm not sure they would have a leg to stand on if they tried to deny warranty because of a product they sold.

[88Racing]

That would be nice if Bill would give us some "bullets" to fire back with.

Talked with the warranties manager today of where I work part time. He said that they or the mfgr never look for a footprint unless the pcm is screwed up(gm products). He even added that some of the conversion pickups that come in also come with hand helds. He also put his 2 cents in abouts tuners. That he loves them and wishes that php did something with gm products and also said that he knows of all the major tuner names out there but if the warranty is yes or no because of a tuner that they better not be an upstart new company or a fly by night one and then he will deny it. He also added that with the small town atmosphere they have its good to be honest, it will help solve the problem quicker.

Lars

[Jackpine]

I've been away all day, so this was the first time I got to actually read Bill's great post. Thank you Bill!

Sounds like there is a strong possibility that if you thought the dealer was going to give you a hard time over having the PCM tuned, it might be a good idea to disconnect the battery for a bit after returning the thing to stock (before taking it in). Then, you could always claim you had the battery out to test it or something equally stupid.

I DO think though, they might have trouble proving the programmer caused the problem with failed injectors, especially since they sent out a letter acknowledging there is a potential problem with the things. I imagine I would take a warranty denial to small claims court if they did.

Oh, and in answer to JWBFX4's question - yes, I got the letter. It's in my glove box so I'll have it handy if I need it.

- Jack