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Bill,
Thank you for publishing the mod and putting it where others and lurkers can find it easily. Thanks to everyone else for outstanding contributions and their great job. Also, I remembered something KISS. Won't let that go again! Lars |
I've got a request in for a little flowbench time. I'll test the mod exactly as it's shown, versus the stock. I'll even try an AEM panel filter I have with it and a Brute Force intake as well. Should be a nice comparo
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Jim, that is exactly the setup I am running with the AEM dryflo panel filter and the DWV intake mod. I am very curious to see the results. Thanks for taking the time to test this for everyone. :2thumbs:
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The 3 inch pipe is in what section of the store? I have never seen black PVC before?
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It is black 3 inch ID ABS DWV pipe from the plumbing section.
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Look or ask for ABS drain waste vent pipe in the plumbing section. Its commonly cheaper than pvc and only requires a one step glue. The pipe is already black and the glue is usually black also. Not all hardware supply stores carry ABS pipe for it may not meet plumbing code in the area they are selling it in. Why keep it on hand if no one can use it.
Lars :thumbsup: :gryphon: |
Yea looking on the website I don't think they carry that up here in Wisconsin.
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Have a look http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...k=P_PartNumber |
I don't think it will fit the outside diameter of the female coupler. That transition is meant to fit the outside diameter of 4 inch pipe. You may be able to order the downspout connector over the web.
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I think if you don't have a Lowes nearby and you want to make the mod using the approach kd4crs did, you should order the Lowes part over the internet. - Jack |
where to buy and what size caps/plugs did you need to cap off where the baffles were? Is it louder now with the baffles removed?
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Got them from Lowes. I'll try to get the sizes for you tomorrow. I have not noticed a difference in sound, but I'm still using the stock air filter. There might be a difference with a K&N replacement filter...but not sure.
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Agent Orang: Did you ever make a parts list of the pices used in your adaptation? If so, could you refer me to the post If not, could you list them. If you do, I will flow bench your mod too. Thanks.
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Parts List for the cold/ram air mod (everything was purchased from Lowe's): Item # Description Price 184176 3"x8' Flex Aluminum Duct $9.57 22735 3" Wht PVC S&D 90D Elbow $2.43 23463 3" No-Hub Coupling Flexible $3.77 22917 3" Flexible Tee w/ Clamps $12.93 Thanks Jim! BTW, I am currently using the stock Motorcraft filter, I'm interested to see the difference a high flow fliter would make to this mod... Parts List for the baffle elimination mod for 92 5.0 (again, everything was purchased from Lowe's): 23406 2" PVC Test Cap 131 0800 $0.57 1-1/2" Lasko SCH 40 Cap , 1-1/4" SCH 40 Cap- item #'s and prices are unknown because the pieces did not have a price tag on it and the guy at the register did not want to bother with it, so he gave them to me. :doh: Forgot to add Black RTV Silicone used to adhere the caps to the tube and flat black spray paint. |
Well got everything in and looks great! We'll see how she runs next weekend. By the way where's a good place to get a AEM dry flo replacement filter.
Lars |
Got mine at AJ-USA for about $35. Here is the link:
http://www.ajusa.com/details/index/4...%205.4L;%20GAS |
Thank you kd4crs I'll get the filter ordered tonight.
Lars |
Alright, so I took the cone off the end of the intake, and for now just have it open in the engine compartment. Do I need to unhook the battery before driving? Positive or Negative.
I have not added a new snorkel yet, I cant get the abs pipe in town. i don't like the white PVC pipe I can get. I am still looking for something that is similar to oem like tubing. I tried a shop vac wand but it is 2.5" diameter, close no cigar, next thought is a leaf blower/vac tube, but being it is February in NE they have not put them out yet. |
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You COULD paint the PVC pipe black, you know. :cheesy smile: My black painted hose clamp came out looking super and added at least 100 HP! :giggle: (Suppose I should post a picture of the final, glorious, all-black, $8 mod, right)? I found the ABS in Home Depot. I think it may be sewer piping. - Jack |
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Boy that paint must get better with age! Last time you told it only added 30hp.:happy-dancing: |
I think it has to do with the building codes in the area, no one carries the abs pipe.
Wow 100 HP that is amazing:cheesy smile: |
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Got to get that picture! - Jack |
It's getting deep!
Lars |
Time to get the waders on.... :waders:
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OK, here we are - the final "All Black" (apologies to the New Zealand Rugby team) version of my homemade CAI:
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../BlackCAI1.jpg I compressed the bellows pretty much to give it some room to expand under engine torque and not pull the tube out of the fender wall. I noticed that earlier, when I had slid the bellows down the tube farther, it had pulled the tube out about 1/2 inch after a hard acceleration (because the engine twists away from the fender wall in this state). Another view: http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../BlackCAI3.jpg It's a fairly neat assembly, and even though the airflow curve is not as "smooth" as I'd like, I think it directs the flow fairly well. - Jack |
I understand why I need to unhook my battery, but for how long and also what terminal? I have reasearched alot on this mod and others like it and I'm getting conflicting times (from ten minutes to 24 hours) and differences on which terminal. I also read some where about turning on your lights or ignition or something to drain something? What does this mean.
Jack, Bill, anybody have clarifications for me? Thanks, Lynn |
ALWAYS... ALWAYS... ALWAYS... unhook the NEGATIVE battery cable first. There's not conflicting story on this, this is how it is and is basic Mechanics 101. There are two reasons for this:
1) If you are wrenching on the positive terminal and happen to bump the body or any other metal part of the vehicle or engine, you have an instant arc welder. Since nearly every car manufactured today is "negative ground", meaning that the the negative battery terminal is attached to the body, frame, and engine, if you were to accidentally short your wrench while undoing the negative cable, nothing will happen. If you short across the battery terminals... well, it wouldn't matter which side you are working at that point. :yikes2: 2) If you remove the positive battery cable and it should happen to touch the negative battery terminal or body, there is a chance that you could cause a sudden capacitive discharge in any of the onboard electronics which could damage them. After removing the NEGATIVE battery cable, many people say to turn on the headlight switch in order to induce a drain to discharge any residual stored voltage in any of the electronics, including the PCM. Since in most cases there is already about 300-500 mA of current draw on the vehicle's systems, not to mention additional load from the dome lamps (if the doors are still open) and the hood lamp (if it's not broken), turning on the headlights won't hurt but probably isn't necessary. I've always let it sit 10-15 minutes, but seriously doubt anything over 30 seconds is necessary. Considering that the KAM (Keep Alive Memory) is akin to the memory presets of your radio, you'll find out in short order how long it takes to clear the PCM. Hope this helps. |
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I did the mod today and everything turned out great. Noticed a nice bump in throttle response. Great mod IMO! -Lynn |
Glad you liked the mod, Lynn. I'm not really sure I can feel any big change, but it was sure fun to do. And, it SEEMS like it should do better at high RPMs. :shrug:
I saw a post in another forum that talked about touching the positive cable to the negative post. It gave me a "queasy" feeling, but I couldn't really see any super harm. I DO like Bill's opinion though. From personal testing, there's a lot of things sucking current all the time, so very soon after you disconnect the negative cable, the whole system is going to be dead. And, boy; if you should happen to touch a ground while unscrewing the positive terminal (with the negative still connected), the number of amps that would suddenly try to go through your wrench would probably light up a whole city! OK, not quite, but the spark and heat would be pretty scary! - Jack |
Once, I accidentally dropped a wrench across the batter terminals. It sparked and popped for a second till it welded to the terminals and literally meted the end of the wrench off, along with the battery terminals. It doesn't take much to melt lead.
Scared the begeezus out of me. Just luck the battery didn't explode (which I've had happen before, too). Nasty stuff... :yikes2: |
Whenever I work on batteries I use a clean rag or shop towel and cover the opposite terminal. Cheap insurance! I also use plastic coated wrenches but rag works the best!
Depending on what vehicle you are working on, watch out and understand mfgs tsb and/or service proceedures on batteries. Some of the newer vehicles won't start until a code is entered into the radio or via a scan tool, after working on the battery. Also follow Bill's post #131 in this thread. Lars |
That's a great tip about covering the other terminal, Lars! :thumbs up yellow:
Interesting about no-start conditions in some vehicles. - Jack |
I always use a fender cover now. Covers the battery and keeps the truck from getting scratched. It's a win-win!
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Well, I cleaned my throttle body, went with a k&n and did the intake mod all in the same day so for me I did notice quite an improvment. Now I need something else to keep me busy with my truck without spending alot of money! I heard about the TPS mod/adjustment, any thoughts?
-Lynn |
Quick question about the mod. :idea: I did this mod about 3 weeks ago, but I never un-hooked the negative terminal to reset the computer.:doh: By now has the computer learned to run with the extra air, or would it be in my best interest to reset the computer? :shrug: Thanks for any help!
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Don't bother with the battery. There's really no reason to mess with it when doing the snorkel mod. All that's really happening is that the modest restriction is being alleviated allowing a little more flow at higher RPM. However, this mod DOES NOT AFFECT the Mass Airflow Sensor and doesn't significantly change AFR like a CAI does. The MAF sensor still accurately reflects the airflow into the engine and the computer handles everything from there.
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Sounds good to me. :happy-dancing:
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Would this need to be noted on a Gryphon order form?
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You could... Always nice to know what's on the truck. I don't think it's absolutely necessary, though.
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They've asked me to post this mod over there in their "how to" forum and I will, after cleaning it up a bit. I'll add this bit of information from you too. - Jack |
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:readthis: EDIT to add: I am referring only to my specific variation of this type of mod for the 5.4L 3valve motor which I designed and tested in Sept. 2005. That is when I posted about it and got jumped by all the cheerleaders for the various vendors and users of commercial CAIs. |
Fate is fickle and cruel. :(
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It is indeed, fickle, kd4crs. I would have been happy to credit your input there too, like I tried to do here, but I don't know if you used the same screen name (I suppose I COULD have searched, but oh, well). Actually, I was in a hurry to get the post up because Rockpick threatened to change my user title to: "I wear a thong" if I didn't. (I'm not kidding)! :o
That's a funny forum though. It seems to attract a few souls who have nothing better to do than to put down anybody and anything. I'm beginning to see it again over "Use the search button!" on FNGs. Too bad, there's some good, knowledgeable people on it and we would benefit if the less tolerant would just remain quiet. - Jack |
I used the same screen name. I would appreciate it if you could at least give me credit for the variation that I contributed. Thanks.
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Done, David -
If you'll go to this thread, in the permanent "How To" forum of f150online, you'll see I've provided a link to the FAQ post here, and, you'll notice I "chided" the members there for not being more receptive to you. It's post #4 in the thread right now and should not get lost with the passage of time like the more ephemeral threads. http://www.f150online.com/forums/art...ml#post3624441 - Jack |
Thank you very much, Jack. :2thumbs: I do appreciate it.
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Am I the only one to not find the 4x3 downspout connector at HD or Lowe's? It also appears that I'll have to paint the PVC since no one carries in in black.
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- Jack |
I ordered the downspout connector online and it should be in my local Lowe's store in 2 days. I'll just buy the white PVC pipe and coupler and paint it...
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I don't see any reason why the painted PVC shouldn't work. Just be sure to use a paint intended for plastics and it should be fine.
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I know it will work...I just didn't want to have to mess with painting it.
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Lars |
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I don't know how well the corrugated pipe would work. What I've seen has fairly thin walls, and, if the outside diameter is right for the bellows, then it might have trouble fitting into the fender hole. However, it's not that expensive, and if it looks like it might work, I say give it a try. If it fits, it will work just fine.
The white PVC pipe is Sch 40, and has fairly thick walls. Dimensionally, it is identical to the black ABS pipe that I used. There is little or no stress on this part of the intake. You can use just about anything that gives you the "tube" effect there. - Jack |
I didn't want to use the corregated stuff since it's not smooth inside and that may disrupt the air flow....and it doesn't look as good as the smooth sch 40 pipe.
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There is "straight" sewer pipe that is schedule 20 PVC, usually used for septic systems. It's gonna half to 2/3s thinner than schedule 40 and much more flexible. It may be flexible enough to squeeze into the oblong shape in the inner fenders. If it couldn't be squeezed into fitting in the hole you wouldn't have enough material to shape it into fitting though.
Ya'll gotta keep in mind that these Lowes, Home Depot folks generally aren't "from the trade" so they might not be familiar with the products and/or what their intended purposes are. FWIW, my local Lowes had the PVC test caps that AgentOrange used in his build. I used a 2" and a 1.5" test cap. Need to go back and get a 1" plug for the other hole. I'll post a couple of pix when i get the plug but I've trimmed the rims off the caps & I'll do the same to the plug along with cutting it short so it doesn't project so far into the intake's air stream. Gives it a pretty clean look. bill the new guy |
The guy at Lowe's told me to not screw with the intake on any vehicle "the manufacturer builds them like that for a specific reason"...after I told him what I was doing with it. I said, "Well, my reasons are different than Fords". He didn't offer much help.
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Oh yeah, I wouldn't tell them anything like that because you might end up with some hard core enviromentalist or something. I always leave it vague and tell them it's for a "project i'm doing..."
bill |
I can only imagine the look on the dude's face!! :disbelief::notallthere:
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DWV vs. sch. 40
Since I've been following this mod here and at F150online I can't remember which thread it was mentioned in...
DWV in ABS should be dimensionally identical to schedule 40 PVC. DWV fittings in PVC will fit sch. 40 pipe & fittings, they're just not rated for pressure; hence their classification as Drain/Waste/Vent. The reason some of you can't find black ABS piping is because either state, county or city codes don't allow for it. The only advantage to ABS pipe (other than being black already) is that it is cheaper than PVC. But similar to schedule 20 PVC it is not as durable as sch. 40 so many codes do not allow for it. For the small amount of pipe/fittings being used you might as well use PVC if you can't readily find ABS and not sweat it. A little flat black paint and it'll look like ABS... bill |
I got all of the parts today. SCH 40 PVC works with the downspout connector perfectly. If March Madness would go away, I'd have this done tonight, but it's looking more towards a tomorrow morning project.
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Got it all installed...It's probably in my head, but the intake "noise" sounded louder.
I'm thinking a PHP sticker on there is in order!!! Hopefully it would mesh nicely with my Gryphon and new catback. |
That's the only thing I miss... I got a bit of intake noise but nothing like what you get with an aftermarket CAI.
I grew up on carbureted engines, I WANT to hear that intake roar when I go WOT!!! The Volant I had on my '99 F150 w/5.4 was delicious! Sounded almost like the '76 'Burban 4X4 400 w/Holley 4 bbl I drove in high school... and $.68/gallon gas to boot! :2thumbs: |
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Just kidding! Lars |
Sweet, where's the sticker? I need all the help I can get...
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Lars |
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Start a thread in prayer requests, and may be and you'll get more!
Just kidding! I think you get one anyway with the gryphon and some awesome mints! Sorry for the tangent. Lars |
Ok here's pix of mine, complete with very dirrrrrty engine compartment:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...f/DSC02372.jpg I used a 2" test/knock out cap, 1.5" test/knock out cap and a 1" plug. Another shot: http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...f/DSC02378.jpg The "ring" you can see on the far end of the PVC is about 1" of a 3" coupling. There's no need to use a whole coupling for an application like this. I didn't even glue it. I shaped the 2" of pipe that protrude into the fender and still had to beat the "bit-o-coupling" onto the pipe. Trust me, it ain't moving. I had cut the coupling to match the Downspout Connector but then decided I didn't want to use the DC. Used the coupling anyway because it looked cleaner than my shaping job and I'm keeping an eye out for a suitable sealing material to go between the "bit-o-coupling" and the fender. Partly for a more factory look, partly for grins and partly out of OCDness... :crazy: Sawzall really effed up part of the tubing, the guard scratched it up some... ach well. Maybe some other day I'll work on cleaning that up. Fixing that will mean smoothing the whole thing though. |
That's next on my list...taking off those "mufflers". Looks much better...
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How long do u have to leave the battery disconnected to reset the PCM?
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I've usually done it for a minute. It's been posted that for this mod it's not really necessary though, unless you've done a bunch of other stuff at the same time.
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I disconnected the battery for a few minutes after I did mine. But now I realize there was no point in doing so. There's really nothing new for the PCM to "relearn".
- Jack |
Txarsoncop - I really had to laugh when I saw your nice shiny CAI in your "camouflaged as a desert" engine bay! :hehe: Kind of like wearing shorts with cowboy boots and a cowboy hat. :smiley_roll1:
But, the intake sure is purty! :thumbs up yellow: - Jack |
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So....though I could toss this in there. Sorry if it needs to be elsewhere but with the intake creativity you guys have it moght fit in.
Took some pics of the 09 intake... http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...zMTktMTUzM.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...zMTktMTUzO.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...zMTktMTUzO.jpg Interesting setup...it's got some mod possibilities for you engineering masters eh. :thumbs up yellow: |
Interesting they went back to a remote filter box?
Lars |
It's friggin wierd. I guess I will have to go back and get more pics but I am curious as to the fx and setup of some of the pieces. Like the piece that comes of right after the hose clamp but before the bellows and goes down.
They moved alot around and not sure why? The main relay box is front and center too..:shrug: |
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Sheesh, don't you people know anything! slams door...... :cheesy smile: :howdy: |
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Thanks for being so "tactful" in your explanation! :smiley_roll1: - Jack |
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I am going to get a 12" section of black ABS, but I really don't expect to see the ACT ever reach the OAT. |
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I had the same problem with scratches from my jig saw when I cut mine. Cutting it from the bottom side would have hidden scratches...oh well, live and learn. It turned out great, good job! Eventually, I want to get rid of the caps and smooth the openings with some type of filler...just haven't figured out what to use yet. |
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But then I figured I couldn't match the texture of the intake tube and it would probably need some matrix like a fiberglass cloth or redneck it with screen cloth to help support it; at least while it was drying. So I got lazy, but I think it's the best possible result w/o doing a LOT of work. |
Anyone think it's worth it to use an aftermarket drop in filter with this set up?
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I entered this post a while back: http://dygytalworld.ehost-services13...12&postcount=2 No one challenged me on it (which doesn't make it true, but it's my feelings on the subject).
I honestly don't see what a "super" filter does for you after 100 miles (except cost more than the OEM brand). Now a cheap knockoff can be a problem - for instance what would happen if the cheap one developed a hole in use? Again, I'm quite open to having my opinion changed - all I need is a good counter-argument. - Jack |
To chop or not to chop?
Ok, for those of us who gleefully cut off our Helmholtz resonators (learn something new every day)...
What do the more learned among you think about this information? Helmholtz resonators :twitch: Caution: MUCH geek-speak here! Although this dumb firefighter was able to get the gist of it.
Hmmm, not so sure whipping out that SawZall was such a great idea after all... Do we need to try to get someone to flow bench or dyno the with and without resonators versions to see if there's a real difference? Seems to me that would be the only answer. Dyno both versions on the same truck and see what the results are. |
If they are so beneficial, why don't aftermarket CAI's have them?
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Bill - I think you're right on the tests needed with and without the resonators. And, don't feel bad about finding that article a difficult read - part of the reason you did is that the guy can't write! He uses words without regard to their meaning so that several sentences are nonsensical. However, I suspect his math is valid for the systems he's studied (which does not match our trucks).
As I said somewhere near the beginning of this thread, fluid flow (air in the duct acts like an fluid) is a very complex, and poorly understood process. I say it's poorly understood because the mathematical models make too many assumptions that allow it to be studied, but that do not allow a precise prediction of the outcome (there's always a bit of error between the predicted results and the actual observed results). I was concerned about the possible bad effects of turbulence in the duct and it would be very easy I think to create a sort of "standing wave" that would interfere with movement of the air mass into the engine. I would still like to have a smoothly "curved" snorkel section that would turn to match the angle of the intake tube more smoothly than what I have right now. I think the sharp angle I have at the bellows can create problems. The article seems to say that the resonators act to reduce the effects of turbulence and standing waves. But, in our case, the resonators were designed for the original duct with the factory snorkel. I honestly have no idea if they are beneficial with the larger intake opening or are actually harmful. However, I felt leaving them on was more prudent than removing them. It also allowed me to return the setup to stock if I chose. I can only report that the truck seems to run well at WOT and I've noticed no loss in power or adverse effects on gas mileage. Other people seem to say the same for their mods with the resonators removed. So, the effects of the resonators are probably not enormously significant. (And, sorry if I got "geeky" too)! :o - Jack |
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Jack,
Thanks, you confirmed what I thought I was reading. Granted I understand fluid dynamics are tricky, tricky. So take my musings below with a grain of salt. But, I live next to a PERFECT example of fluid dynamics gone wrong. Plus being a firefighter and having a master plumber for a father I understand the "common sense" wet side pretty well. The author of the article was referring to a single cylinder engine and, at first, I thought well that's totally wrong for our 8 cyl application. But then I thought I remembered that with a V8 only 2 cylinders are opening at once correct? So it's not really that much different? Except for a convoluted intake path, a filter media and unexplained holes in both the resonators and intake tube. If I'm remembering correctly I believe you posited somewhere here that the holes might actually be to remove some of the "springyness." I rounded the edges of my PVC with the Dremel and a file because it just seemed to make sense. Probably didn't make a difference but... :shrug: |
Here's some ?'s for you guys also to ponder.
Do you ever think of where our filter is on a stock location compared to a cai? Do you ever think of how much more volume a vacuum needs to displace when you have a cai? Do you think the snorkle nozzle help to create vacuum and velocity at the same time? Just some thoughts as I was doing a fire pump test today and had to use reducer nozzles to increase flow pressure at the hose monster pitot gauge. Lars |
I just got around to purchasing the alternate rigid 3 inch tubing that fordmt08 on f150onloine.com used for his intake modification and it looks like it will work well installed a couple of different ways. The tubing required is made by Spectre Peformance. It is part number 8741 for the black color (8742 is Red, 8746 is Blue, 8748 is Silver) and it is called: 3" Flexible Air Duct. It is priced ~$20 and should be available at O'Reilly Auto Parts and Autozone stores. I installed it completely collapsed using one of the two connectors that come with the kit to go into the fender inlet and using the downspout connector to connect to the stock flexible section. It fits perfectly and does not require any hose clamps. I will be testing it out with my Gryphon Custom 87 performance and Custom 87 towing tunes this week. This variation completely eliminates any possibility of the downspout connector collapsing or getting sucked inside out.
http://dygytalworld.ehost-services13...&pictureid=398 http://dygytalworld.ehost-services13...&pictureid=399 |
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First I want to say WOW! this thread has exploded since the first time I skimmed over it. I did the gotts with my 08 4.6L and here are some of the pics.
The first one is the section of PVC that goes into the fender and the second shows how it fits. The big section taken from the 'bottom' of the pipe lets it fit in the flat area of the fender hole snug. The little cuts on the 'top' help hold the pipe in place. I cut it like that because I didn't have any large grit sand paper and I think they work pretty well because they bend to hold the pipe in place. I also used a 3 in flexible coupling to attatch it to the intake. Pretty soon I may work on a ram air type of intake but I'm still working on the idea. Making stuff fit in the 4.6's is difficult. :nerd: |
Nice pics, Longshot. I think what you've designed will work just fine. I clamped the bellows on my snorkel tube so that the bellows are nearly fully compressed. That way, if the engine moves, and it will under high acceleration, it won't pull the snorkel out of the fender.
- Jack |
Thanks, I'm thinking about making some kind of ram but there isn't much space so I'll keep looking at it. I believe that if something didn't have those "stop and scratch head" moments then it's not finished. :hehe:
Well one thing that is kind of good about the 4.6s is that part of their box is attatched underneath so they dont move at all. But the tube afterwards has enough play to handle any movement the engine makes. |
Hi Jack, thanks for the info on the gotts mod, I think its a logical starting point. Do you think I should also use K+N filter.
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