trans problems with gryphon
 

I've had my gryphon for a couple of weeks now, enjoying it with no problems........ Until this morning. Now the truck makes a weird whining noise and will not shift into 3rd gear. 1-2 is fine, then when its time for third, the tranny slips bigtime. Like it goes into neutral, if you give it gas it just revs up, and sometimes it pounds into a gear with a harsh thud.

Did running my shift firmness at 14 destroy my transmission?? I havent been real hard on it. Just having fun with the new shifting patterns. Btw, I set 1-2 at 5700, 2-3 at 5500, and 3-4 at 5400 all with shift firmness at 14.

First, are you serious with these numbers?

Your torque converter is going to start ballooning at 5400 rpm, according to everything I've read on the subject. To make your transmission shift properly at WOT, you'd need to have your max RPM set to no less than 6100 RPM. This sounds like a recipe for disaster.

And, what engine do you have in your truck? If it's the 5.4L, you are already on the downside of the torque and HP curve at 5000 rpm, why go higher?

Bill has commented on setting the shift firmness too high. The canned tunes in the Gryphon have already firmed up the shifts quite a bit. If you add more to that, you can put serious stress on the drivetrain. Bill has also said that the 3-4 upshift firmness should be quite a bit less than the settings for the other two shifts.

Did you notice the big red warning in the Gryphon manual about making adjustments to these settings in the Custom Options menu?

If I were you, I'd return the tune to stock, immediately! Find out what the truck is doing now. I'd also have a dealer do a thorough inspection and probably a flush of your transmission. You may be in for a rebuild.

If so, it was NOT the fault of the Gryphon!

And, if you're just winding me up to see my reaction, you've seen it!

- Jack

I gotta agree with Jack on this one. If u think of a manual trans, with a shift firmness of 14. Its like dropping the clutch EVERY time the transmission shifts gear. Too much slip as well as too little are very bad for automatic trannys. Maybe Cody will jump in with his expertise.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/f...inaltap-11.jpg

Can you post up your VIN so I don't run across your truck on the used lot?:yikes2:

I see you have a 2006 with a 5.4L.


Well, for 3rd gear, the only different apply component for 3rd gear operation is the direct clutch. It is used in 3rd and 4th gears. You mention a "whining" sound. This can be either stripped splines on the friction elements or a possible unseating of the snap ring that holds the frictions in the drum.

Either way, a flush WILL NOT fix it. It is broken.

The problem with a transmission that shifts too quickly is that hard parts (like splines and one way clutches) really pay for it. The friction elements really love quick shifts. Like DJ said, it's a real trade off for shift feel vs. longevity.

There is a VERY GOOD possiblity that over-running certain apply components during a shift (and shifting really quickly) caused a reversal of rotation that was just too much for a mechanical part to sustain too many times. I see it a lot with forward sprags in 4L60E transmissions when people "rock" their vehicles when stuck or shifting to drive while still rolling backwards out of a parking spot or driveway.

In any case, I think you have exceeded the mechanical limits of your transmission by high RPM full load shifts with too much TV pressure.

Sorry.

I was just reading this thread and i was curios on what the gryphons shift firmness in for the canned and unaltered tunes was for the tow and the performance tunes?

Anyone???

Your question has no easy answer, because there are really three components to shifting. Bill talked about two of them in detail here: http://dygytalworld.ehost-services13...40&postcount=2

The third component, that he called "slip" is the "Shift Firmness" component and it's simply the time delay between clutch release and clutch engagement during a shift. The Custom Options menu lets you adjust this as a percentage change to what already is in place for that shift - the "zero" point. So, if the built in "zero point" delay for a shift was 450 milliseconds, then +14 would reduce it to 387 milliseconds.

Both the canned and custom tunes have already decreased the delay that was built in to the stock shifts. And, they have altered the torque reduction and line pressures.

I personally feel that unless you are an expert transmission engineer, you should approach altering "Shift Firmness" with a bit of respect. We have to trust that Bill knows what he's doing and we'd better have a very good reason to undo anything he's set up.

However, I was more concerned about the WOT shift points in the OP's post than the Firmness settings. To get the transmission to complete the shift, he'd need the MAX rpm set WAY up! While we don't have a specific "redline" engine speed on these trucks, pushing it about 1000 above stock seems somewhat excessive.

- Jack

This is fisherman's wife. What does a new transmission cost? Hopefully not the marriage!!! lol Seriously though will a new transmission really affect selling the truck in the future? And are we talking hunderds here, or thousands....Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg

Since I've never replaced a transmission, I don't know what the cost is to rebuild or replace. A CarFax report would point up a transmission replacement/rebuild, so, that might effect resale price. If it's not done properly, the thing fails again, usually quite quickly.

There ARE replacements that are more durable than the stock transmission, if you have to go this route.

- Jack

I would be surprised if you can get it rebuilt or replaced for under $2500 if you are having someone do the work... I have no idea what a rebuild costs on that truck... as for resale a good upgraded transmission WILL definitely add to the resale value.. go over to http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum24/ or go to F150online and ask about transmission recommendations.... you can also probably find a good mechanic on the forums in your area that is willing to do side jobs and save you some cash...
I am guessing the Fisherman is not that mechanically inclined but if you remove the transmission yourself and take it in for a rebuild that can save you lots of cash too...

Just for reference...

Calibration development was done on 2004, 2005 and 2006 F150 trucks. On all of them, we would push them well past what I would consider "normal" modifications and all of them resulted in zero failures.

I personally drove the 2006 for almost a year. Modifications included 35" tires on a 5" lift, a "snorkel" mod, and a NX Nitrous kit set at 150 HP shot. (Yeah, it was freakin' AWESOME when it hit!!)

Testing maximum limits were as follows:

Rev Limiter - 6000 RPM
Speed Limiter - 150 MPH
Timing - +5 Deg. (Running appropriate octane fuel for calibration)
1-2 WOT - 5300 RPM
2-3 WOT - 5300 RPM
3-4 WOT - 4800 RPM
1-2 Firm - +25%
2-3 Firm - +25%
3-4 Firm - +25%

I drove with the shift firmness set at +25 nearly all the time (including when running the nitrous) and hadn't had any issues. Of course, this is only one vehicle and others may not respond identically.

The fact is that mechanical failures happen for a variety of reason, even on unmodified vehicles. If there are any components in a vehicle that are marginal, then performance products or any other modifications that increase strain (lift kits, big tires, etc) can push those marginal components to the point of failure. Unfortunately, there is simply now way to account for those types of failures. In most cases, this tends to be the transmission, although the number of transmission failure I've seen over the last 5 years have been extremely low... less than 10 (maybe less than 5) that I'm aware of.


Fisherman,

While I doubt that the problem with your trans is specifically related to unusually high RPM settings or aggressive shift firmness, I think those settings may have contributed to the failure of marginal components that would have failed of their own accord at some point.

I hope this makes sense...

Take care.

OK, so I brought my truck into the dealership (because my dad has been a machanic there for over 35 years). They tore into the transmission and found that the converter had basically exploded, sending filings and other debris throughout, causing major damage to everything else. In other words the transmission is almost 100% destroyed (besides the casing).

Now, since my truck is just past its waranty of 60K, and because my dad has been of excellent service for over 35 years, him and the head honchoes are trying to convince ford motor company to file this as a "Good Will" waranty claim. Which basically means that they feel bad because my truck is just past the waranty period, so they (ford) will cover half of the damage.

If this convincing turns out for the better, my bill will turn out to be around $1500 CND. So I'm crossing my fingers that they give in, cause I'm not really looking forward to spending at least 3K!

So, now that I learned the hard way...... What should I set my shifting and stuff to when I get the truck back??

My wife wants me to no longer use the gryphon, but I refuse to let an $800 part collect dust because of a stupid mistake. Also I dont even have my custom tunes yet!

So according to Bills info, I should be able to safely run the WOT shifts at 5300?? And shift firmness at 25? WOW, the shifting at 14 felt pretty harsh. The change in my ashtray would rattle when it shifted!

Anyways, I'll probably leave those parameters alone for a while cause I'll be terified of destroying the transmission again!!:(

Hey fisherman!
Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

A tc is just like any other mechanical component. 2 weeks ago we had a 06 gmc denali blow up a brand new one with 600 miles on it. A month before that one of our f250 spit one out with 5K on a rebuild. Different shops did the work. Different drivers in each vehicle. No tuners or tunes in either of them.
I am still wondering about the quality of parts that goes into these vehicles and weather or not you just happened to be lucky and get one that only lasted 60K.

Good luck on the "good will" warranty.

Lars

Fisherman, I'm going to try to explain this very carefully, so please pay attention!

You bought a pickup truck, not a funny car. Don't drive it like a funny car unless you make some major mods!

When Bill put nitrous in the truck he was testing, he moved the HP and torque peak outputs to the right in the graphs. And, we really don't know how often he ran the thing at WOT, do we?

In your truck, the torque and HP are falling off at 5000 RPM. There's no benefit whatsoever to setting a shift point higher than that (unless you just like to hear the engine scream and the transmission self-destruct). The Torque Converter starts to balloon (distort) at 5400 RPM. Give you any clue why your TC got toasted?

To get the transmission to shift properly at WOT, the max RPM needs to be at least 400 above any of the WOT shift points. From personal experience, it needs to be even higher for the 3-4 upshift. However, notice that Bill had the 3-4 upshift on his truck set 500 below the other shifts. Bill has mentioned that this shift is somewhat harder on the drivetrain than the others, so it's best to keep it at a lower point.

Here are my numbers, for my tow tune, just to give you a reference point:

1-2 Upshift: 4975
2-3 Upshift: 4975
3-4 Upshift: 4400
Max RPM: 5400

The tow tune is designed to keep the engine in the power band as long as possible during WOT acceleration.

Bluejay, in the f150Online forum, set his shift firmness at about +12, +12, +9 when he had the "canned" tunes - he likes "very firm" shifts. But remember, the canned tunes have already "firmed up" the shifts some! Don't get carried away here! Once Bluejay got his custom tunes, he left the firmness settings at 0, which is where I have them. On a WOT shift, it's quick enough to cause my serpentine belt to "squeak". I don't really want it any harsher than that. A strong "jolt" is putting stress on things. No "feel" at all, is wearing out the bands, due to prolonged slippage. Cleatus12r talked about this in his post, and I'd pay attention to what he said. He knows what he's talking about.

OK, I've probably lectured you enough. The programmer did not destroy your transmission. You should not hesitate to use it again - just use it sensibly!

- Jack

Jack, thank you for informatal reply! I did feel that the power really fell after about 5000 RPM, but I just loved the way it sounded beyond that! It sounds like a turbo.

So when I do get my custom tunes, which are custom-tow(87), Performance(87), and Performance(91), the shift points and firmness are already adjusted to obtain good performance and firmer yet still safe shifts ?

I thought that it was just air/fuel, and timing adjustments, then you take care of the rest to your liking.

Also, I'm just curious as to why the gryphon lets you set the parameters to these extreme levels, when its just not practical, and/or safe?? :confused:

First, I need to apologize for the condescending tone of my last post. :o It was really uncalled for, you were asking perfectly valid questions and I let my unhappiness with the "blow everyone off the map" mentality that I see in many people get the best of me. I'm sorry. I could edit the post but I'll leave it as an example of bad manners.

Now, to your new questions: When Bill writes your custom tunes, he's going to adjust the transmission line pressure, slip and torque reduction to optimize your shifts for performance and longevity at the shift points he sets up for you. He will build in WOT shift points and the max RPM for each tune. He will also include the Tire Size and Gear Ratio information in each tune so that everything works in harmony.

He'll also set up part-throttle shift and torque converter lock/unlock points to help you realize your goals during "ordinary" driving.

And yes, he DOES set air/fuel and timing too.

All in all, there's very little YOU need to do. But, you might find, for instance as I did, that there's something about the tune that might be changed - SLIGHTLY! Here's where you have to apply judgment. I decided, for instance, that my truck seemed to eager to downshift under slight load. I felt the tune was possibly "biased" a bit more towards performance than I wanted. So, I decreased the part throttle up and downshift and torque lock/unlock points. This seems like a "safe" adjustment - in either direction.

I left the WOT shifts and max RPM alone. But, I did raise the max speed from the stock 99 mph, to 110. Why? Because if I'm passing a long line of cars on a 2-lane road, I tend to try to get around them as fast as I can. I would not want to suddenly hit the speed governor in the middle of this maneuver. I just wanted the "wiggle room", even though I never cruise above 80 mph.

Your last question is VERY hard to answer. I've often wondered much the same thing, especially since it's so hard to find any real information on safe operating limits with these trucks. They CAN be modded though, in ways that either increase their reliability under extreme stress or in ways that push the performance envelope toward those extremes. Adding a turbo and/or adding nitrous are simply two examples of pushing the performance envelope. With mods like those, you'd want higher RPM settings. There are transmission replacements that can handle such changes too. And, you could even do some major work on the engine itself let it operate safely under higher stress. That's about all I can come up with, and I know it sounds pretty weak.

Hope this helps, and, I hope your transmission gets fixed without too much strain on your wallet (and your marriage)! I've made enough expensive mistakes in the past that I know how it feels. :cry-blow:

- Jack

Just leave the customs alone and if you don't like them then adjust them "gradually".

When you get your customs they come with a new set of values in each one. Like shift firmness might be all zeros in a tow tune but in a perf tune they might be +3 of the tow but stilll at all zeros for that perf tune.
Remember tow has load and perf no load.

Also when you go into these settings there is a "warning screen".

Why do they let you take the settings so far?
Because your neighbor might have the heavy duty performance stuff and you don't or the other way around. They are trying to market to the masses not an individual.

Like Jack said these aren't "funny cars".

Lars

Thank you very much Jack and Lars.... Your knowledge has been passed on to me, and I now know what to do when I finally get my truck back!

Also for Jack, nothing was taken personally:thumbs up yellow: I was more mad at myself for such a stupid mistake:sigh:

Lesson well learned

Trouble is, it's not so much a mistake as a lack of knowledge. And, Ford doesn't really make getting this knowledge easy. If I were Ford, I'd publish the safe limits of the engine and transmission, just like tire manufacturers do for tires. Then, if you exceed those limits, you have only yourself to blame

I suspect, they've fallen into the thought process of "The computer will take care of everything, so we don't have to worry about painting a redline on the tach.", and similar arguments. I've seen people post similar crap in other forums, i.e., "Why worry about the maximum engine temperature? The computer takes care of it all, and will shut you down before you get there. Just be happy and drive".

And, to be honest, I'm not even sure of the 5400 RPM TC balloon figure. It just happens to be what Mike Troyer posted a long time back and no one seems to want to say it's wrong.

- Jack