added UD pulley's, need to change anything?
 

hey bill and corey,

i just added UD pulleys, is there anything i need to change? like idle speed or anything?

thanks

Yes, go into CO and bump the idle up 50-75 rpms. With everything on you don't want to fall below 13.0 volts on the voltage pid.

Lars

ok thanks, i set it at 65.

is that all?

also i dont know if anybody can help out about this but the gryphon is showing i have 2 DTC's

1. P0480 Fan 1 Control Circuit

2. P0528 Fan Speed Sensor Circuit No Signal


i dont get where i would check for this, i have the harness connected that connects to the fan and there is nothing else unplugged

any ideas?

I don't know what to check either. Sounds like the system thinks you have e-fans, but you don't show that you do. I don't think there's any kind of monitoring for the clutch driven fan.

- Jack

Try clearing the codes to see if they come back.

Make sure all connections are tight.

Check to make sure there isn't a magnetic pickup sensor on the old waterpump pulley.
I haven't dealt w/ to many 2008's yet.

Lars

ok i will try clearing them. im positive there is only one connection to the fan and it is plugged in.

also there wasnt anything on the water pump, but i will make sure there is nothing around it

Ford changed stuff on the engine fans, starting ~2006 or 2007. Even though the fan is driven by the water pump pulley as before, the clutch is controlled by the PCM. And it appears to be more than just on/off control. Looks like the PCM outputs PWM (pulse-width moulation) which controls how much the clutch locks up, which in turn controls the actual speed of the fan. It's a closed loop system because the fan then has a sensor that reports its RPM back to the PCM. There's DTCs for when the PCM commands the fan clutch to engage and but doesn't see an increase in the reported fan speed.

Beat me to it!
Better description than what I had to offer!

Lars

Where you get your ud's from?

Lars

http://www.f150online.com/forums/oth...ml#post3766103

Ok, so what was the ticking sound?
Was it something that wasn't connected correctly and wore off or broke?
I see you got them from troyer, good choice!
When the fan was removed no wires got accidently yanked on? Twisted?
Worst case scenario on going to the dealer the truck may go into a limp home mode but if it hasn't by now I wouldn't worry about it. Just drive real easy.


Lars

im not sure was the ticking sound was, i went and re-torque'd the crankshaft pulley and it seemed to be fine.


the wires might have been yanked but seem to be just fine. i cleared the DTC's and started the engine and couple times and they never came back one but we will see once i drive it a distance.

the truck should be fine, i drove it this morning about 30 miles with the ticking and all and it was just fine.


it only needs to last until i get the e-fans which hopefully the part troyer is waiting for to make the kit gets in tomorrow, so hopefully i will have them late next week.

everything seems to be fine, radio, a/c, no overheating etc etc. not sure if i need to change the idle RPM's higher or lower or not, they seem to be fine at 65. why would be a reason to lower or raise them?

while im at it getting answers here, i noticed after buttoning everything back up that this little tube was loose. it connects to the front left brake and goes up to the rear ABS pump i believe. i cant seem to see anything it connects to.

can anybody check on this in their truck

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/l...8/IMG_0051.jpg

i think its for the vent to the front axle

Like 427R roush said. Look on top of the diff casing.

Hopefully the efans come in real soon!

Lars

What do you mean by 65? Rpm's?

You don't want the voltage below 13.0 for long periods of time.
Try this:while the truck is running at normal idle turn on your voltage pid.
Then turn on everything you can think of. It drops to 12.0-12.3 with the truck in D and brakes on!
Now add in efans and you want to boost your idle some more 100+rpms(from original stock idle).

Lars

Sburn - you're an absolute goldmine of knowledge! :2thumbs: (I'm being quite sincere when I say that).

Funny, isn't it, that something as simple as a temperature induced viscosity increaser would have to be replaced by sensors, specialized circuitry in the PCM and probably, a much more complicated clutch mechanism in the fan hub. I suppose that's progress, and I'm sure it's ever so much more precise, but still....

- Jack

Thank you. I claim no special abilities other than I enjoy reading wiring diagrams and powertrain manuals and such.


I can make a guess why Ford ended up with such an elaborate system: R-134 refrigerant in the A/C just doesn't work as good as the older R-12 at idle/slow speeds, so you really need the fan to be engaged and pulling fresh air through the condenser when the vehicle is moving slowly. But, at highway speeds, the fan doesn't even need to be there at all to provide A/C and engine cooling and becomes a load that hurts mileage. Being that the PCM already knows the vehicle speed, ambient temp, A/C status, engine temp, etc. anyway, it makes sense to spend a few extra bucks for some wires, connectors, and a few lines of CPU code to eliminate the above two issues. And since it's all just softwre at that point, might as well do something smarter than just On/Off controll and have the PCM map the perfect fan RPM against temps, A/C, VSS, engine temps, etc.. And after replacing one or two of the older visco/thermo -style clutches in my time, I can see how having the PCM know about a misbehaving clutch would be a good thing.

ok so i should go out, bring the battery voltage up on the gryphon screen, turn everything on, then put it into drive with the brakes on, so basically its just in drive not rolling, and then see what my voltage is at?


thanks guys btw!

Here's another good thread on under drive pulleys:
http://dygytalworld.ehost-services13...ighlight=drive

Lars

Oh, I think you're being a bit modest. You seem to understand and make inferences from what you read too. Not everyone can do that.

The part I "bolded" in your quote seems to make a case against e-fans, doesn't it? An intelligent fan that puts little to no drag on the engine at highway speed, but that runs (through a direct couple) when the engine is at idle to keep everything cool. Some people forget that the power for e-fans HAS to come from somewhere, and that "somewhere" is the alternator that is powered by the engine. Anytime you increase the load on the alternator, you MUST increase drag on the engine. And, since there is a "middleman", sort of, in this system (the alternator), you cannot have 100% transference of power to the fans, since nothing is 100% efficient.

And, to the th3godf4th3r (and everyone else), sorry that I hijacked this thread. It's one of my great failings. :o :sigh:

- Jack

BTW Godfather,

Reading Jack's and Sburn's discussion, maybe you already have the best cooling available to you and your truck!

Lars:2thumbs:

well we shall see if i get any improvements, im not really worried about the a/c because i live in seattle and there are only about 60 days or so that i need it.


i was doing both the ud pulleys and efans for mpg gains (if any) because my mileage is really in the gutter.


i honestly hope that it helps because i drive at least 35 miles a day and im putting more miles onto the truck than i want to. now i would be ok with this if i start to get an increase in gas mileage. im only average maybe 13 mpg per tank, getting to 15 would be great.

if it doesnt really help then ill be a little mad because of all the money ive spent on mods i could have bought a cheap little commuter car but oh well at least my truck could probably beat a rice rocket if i pulled up to one. that makes the mods worth it :)

OK, to noodle the e-fan business around a little bit more, here are my thoughts and calculations. Feel free to refute, correct, debate:

Looks like the standard twin e-fan set-up (Spal, Derale, F-A-L) makes 4000-5000 CFM and take around 50 Amps (2 fans @ 25A). 50 Amps @ 12 Volts is 600 Watts. 600 Watts converts to 0.8 Horsepower. As Jack said above, there will be some conversion losses. A quick search suggests that belt-driven alternators are not much more than 50% efficient in converting mechanical to electrical power, so the engine has to turn the alternator with 1.6 HP to get that 0.8 HP (600W) out the other side.

I can find very little on how much HP is required to turn a conventional (non e-fan), other than from the folks who are selling e-fans. The often quoted 10-15 HP drag may come from a clutch-engaged fan at 5000 RPM for all I know. And the HP "savings" in that case would be 15 HP less the 1.6 HP for e-fans, in the case of the e-fans fans running full speed.


So, back to the real world:

In summer stop-and-go traffic, the e-fan may prove helpful with the added airflow for the A/C. 1.8 HP gets used to power those e-fans, but I'm not sure I care too much about losing 1.8 HP in stop-and-go traffic anyway. Having the A/C work real well is a fair trade on a hot summer day for me. The conventional fan in this situation is engaged and eating some ammount of HP, but it's likely moving less air than the e-fan, so it's likely using less HP than the e-fan.

Now, traffic clears out and I'm now zooming along at 60 MPH. e-fan are (or should be) completely off and taking zero HP. Conventional fan should have the clutch open and be freewheeling.

So at idle, the conventional fan may win the HP battle, provided you don't care about maximum A/C. And a 60 MPH, the e-fan wins since they should be off. At 60 MPH the conventional fan is disengaged, but it's still taking some HP just becasue of the mass and clutch drag.

Thoughts? Comments?

Full on, Sburn! VERY well presented post! It's what I like about this forum, people actually have brains over here and they use them!

I'm glad you did the research on the power loss, since I was too lazy/incompetent to do so. And it gives me a platform to comment.

IF, the 1.6 HP penalty is correct, and it sounds pretty good to me given the power demand figure you quote for the e-fans, then stopped at idle, it's kind of a "wash" isn't it? The e-fans are using a constant 1.6 HP, and the new PCM controlled fan's needs vary between quite low (at engine idle, since it is not turning very fast) to higher at cruising speeds - where it should be freewheeling anyway.

Now, the only thing that power demand does at idle is use a bit more fuel (in both cases) and, for the amount of time we're usually stopped, I doubt we'll feel much difference in the AC. So, the PCM controlled fan may win out in economy at idle and not make us too uncomfortable.

But, I don't know when the e-fan controller cuts it off as speed increases. I think it is purely temperature controlled, so it's possible the PCM controlled fan might cut off sooner, as a speed increase is seen?

And, since both should usually be off at highway speeds, we're left with your final statement. Is there any clutch drag with the new fan? The ram airflow through the radiator is going to encounter both kinds of fans and will try to spin them and all of this causes aerodynamic drag. But, the drag would be there anyway, since the engine and engine bay is not exactly a "slippery" aerodynamic shape. So, we spin the e-fans by airflow and get nothing in return since they are "decoupled". We spin the "water pump" fan and, if there is any clutch drag at all, we decrease its drag on engine power. But, if there's no clutch drag (does there have to be?) there's actually no power loss to the engine.

I know there was always some power loss through the fluid clutch since it is always ON. But, could the new clutch be purely (or effectively) mechanical? I doubt the new design would have been adopted if there were no real benefits. The fluid coupled fan was "simple", and it worked, but there was always drag. Maybe the drag was eliminated in the new, more complicated design?

- Jack

Thanks guys for putting numbers to this statement.
Sburn now what if any are the advantages of a viscus clutch over the traditional clutch?
I wish I knew more about that electic clutch wether or not if it's a hard lockup, partial lockup, or maybe gradual lockup?

Lars

Sburn posted the numbers, not me! And, your question that I "bolded" does sort of differentiate between something that works and something that is just "hype", doesn't it?

I know if I'd replaced something as simple as a viscous clutch, I'd go with hard lockup.

- Jack

There's two flavors of e-fan controllers that I know of. Simple Off/On at a preset temprature (~thermostat temp) and PWM e-fan controllers that vary the e-fan speed based on the temp. sensed at either the radiator or by piggybacking on the factory ECT/CHT. So, the e-fan with a smart controller wouldn't always have to be running at 100% when it's on.

I'm not yet sure how the clutch works on the new PCM fans. Could be a PWM to some kind of solenoid that squishes some hydraulic bits, or a variable DC voltage to a magnetic particle clutch. I'll have to RTFM this weekend. Or, drag out the old oscilloscope.

Ford's PID show the fan RPM sensor and PCM output to the clutch as a percentage, but I don't yet know if the percentage mean duty cycle or a voltage:

http://www.smbtech.com/fan_pids.jpg

Or, if you had access to a 2008+ truck, you could try spinning the fan by hand with the engine stopped. If you feel drag, it's going to be there anytime the engine is turning.

- Jack

So, you're suggesting I might hook a fish scale up to the fan with the engine stopped and measure the drag as torque, right? That could be good to know. Not sure about 2008+, but my 2007 does have some drag when stopped, so whatever scheme the clutch is, it's not perfect.

:hehe: I thought you said the change was in the 2008 MY. My 2005 certainly has viscous drag when I attempt to spin it by hand with the engine stopped. I haven't actually tried this, but as I understand it, the drag should be greater if the engine is hot. (I'll have to give it a try). In my engine, the fan ALWAYS turns, but, it is supposed to turn faster (closer to engine speed) with the engine hot. (I know you know this, I'm just adding it for anybody who may not understand how a viscous clutch works).

I doubt you could measure it with a fish scale though on a stopped engine. You'd need to catch the fan to a scale mounted on a rafter or something and measure the force on the stalled fan with the engine running. Then, you could calculate the torque/hp loss from this force and the distance you had the "hook" from the hub. It's not something I'd like to try, since it sounds a bit dangerous.

But, if there is NO resistance in the 2008+ line, then that is a whole different clutch! And, you should be able to compare the relative resistances in different MY trucks by feel.

- Jack

2006 or 2007, AFAIK. PCM-controlled fans have a harness with connector a 5 wires that sit between the water pump pulley and the fan hub.


If harder to turn when hot and no wiring, then that sound like your 2005 has thermo controlled clutch.

Right, not a good idea to do it that way.

Here is some more reading on fans:http://dygytalworld.ehost-services13...read.php?t=467

Lars

Of course I'd completely forgotten that thread, Lars. AgentOrange really improved HIS mileage with the e-fan, didn't he? Same truck as mine too.

Looks like, according to my Haynes manual, that your 2006 had the viscous clutch fan too. Didn't you put in e-fans Lars? I know you replaced the pulleys. How has all this effected your mileage?

I guess the next time I'm at the dealership, I should go try to move a fan by hand to compare the resistance in the newer setup with mine. There's no doubt at all that there's significant, CONSTANT drag on the engine with my fan, regardless of the need for cooling.

- Jack

about to add the e-fans. need to do anything? just up the idle speed?


for anyone that has them, what did you set the temps at? i live in seattle so its never super hot and never super cold

I don't think the ambient temperature is of concern to you. What does matter is the engine temperature. You'd like it to be in the 200 degree range, for best performance and fuel economy.

I don't have them, but I think I'd start cooling things off if I saw 210 degrees.

And of course, you do not want them on at all if the engine is cold.

- Jack

yeah i see that most people turn them on at 195 and 205 or so

i still havent got them yet, but i really shouldnt have to screw with them that much correct?

No efans yet.
Got .5 mpg better and more pep in stock.
Just a note on troyer's controller: Use a SPAL one instead.
Detailed instructions come with the kit.
Use a ir point and shoot temp gauge on upper radiator hose to determine on temp.

Lars

ok so i installed them today and got them running.

heres a couple questions

i set the fan to come on at about 195, should i set it higher? lower?

to set the second fan at 205 is it easiest to drive until i get to that temperature and then run and turn it on? i had it sitting running in the driveway for a good 15 min and never got above 196

How are you measuring the temps?

Using an ir gun or the gryphon. Set the gryphon on CHT pid it should be anywhere from 202-208 if still at stock or canned tunes. If you have custom tunes it will be 2-4 degrees higher. So set the second one at 210?
Take her for a short test run to confirm. Others have gone through the expense and mounted leds to see when theirs turn on.

This maybe simpler.
This is courtesy of f150online. They are using the ECT on the edge. Here's the link:
http://www.f150online.com/forums/v8-...ml#post3055325

Lars

i am reading from the ECT temp on the gryphon. should i read from CHT instead?

im on custom tunes, so what should it be at?

Read my edit and goto link.

Lars

Sorry for the edit and confusion.

Lars

ok so i read that and im still confused.

should i switch to CHT on the gryphon and have the fan turn on when it hits 195? and then the second fan turn on at 205?


the custom tunes and switching from ECT to CHT really through me for a loop.


thanks 88

Hey i set mine on at 185-190ish somewhere in there for the first one and 190-195ish for the second one. i used the gryphon cht i do believe and so far so good. did some hard driving on it with ac on level 2 and 3 and temps never went above 214 in 108 heat in stop and go and wot burst. I am happy with em and than next weekend install my pulleys. mpg cant compliment yet having too much fun yet will know in a week or two if i picked any up. hoping to gan at least one if nto two once i tame myself down some lol

As desertracer used his cht.
The link I showed you uses ECT
Cht would be more accurate
Ect I would go 190 and 200
Cht I would go 200 and 210

Take some short trips to verify.
Raise or lower.
Monitor your ect and cht pid to verify.
These "kits" are not perfected or dialed in, so some user adjustment is necessary.

Lars

alright thanks guys, i will try to dial it in tomorrow and report back

ok so i set the first one to come on at 200 CHT but then when i tried to set the second one for 210 the fan doesnt come on period, even turning the dial all the way around

fuse is fine and it comes on when the a/c is on but i cant make it turn on at a set temp


any ideas?

oh and should i bump up the idle speed also?

First fan is for the thermo stat.
Second fan is for ac on + 100 percent.

Whose kit are you putting in?

Lars

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

For the driver side you just wait untill operating temps. For the passenger side ac has to be on for the fan to kick on. I live in vegas so I wired both fans to come on with the ac when it is on. Also yes bump the idle up a lil as my truck started to surge and the volt meter started to drop to the 12's. Been a day now and fans are working flawlessly. I might have my fans come on too soon yet truck seems to be running in operation temps according to the display. Also seems to have more get up and go and better control on the skinny pedal lol. Lmk if you need any more help

well i got the driver side one. it comes on when i show 200 CHT on my gryphon, i was then wanting the second one to come on at 210 CHT. however, i can turn the dial all the way around and it never turns on. the only time it turns on is when i press the a/c button which it should because i have it come on whenever i have the a/c turned on.

its just if the CHT got above 210 the second fan wont turn on unless the a/c gets turned on

thats what is puzzling me

well think you might have a problem if you can turn the screw a full 360 degree it is only supposed to go 3/4 of a full turn. think that might be your problem as you may have stripped that lil screw for the controller. that is werid as when my truck hits a certain temp both fans kick on. i see what you are saying. only thing i can think of is double check the wiring. and make sure all connections are good and solid.

ok so ive been playing around with it for awhile now TRYING to get the first fan to come on at 200 CHT but it never seems too until about 208-210

the second one i still cant get to come on at a higher temp.


i had guys on f150online tell me to go by the ECT because the t-stat opens at 195 and when i set the fan at 200 for the CHT the ECT is always at about 194.


should i change it so i try and get the fan to come on at 200 ECT??

also the temperature probes, could they be doing this? one of them is a little bit loose but only if you pull it. the other one is better