Still have that trani lag.
 

Just installed the gryphon and of course I tried out all the canned tunes (custom tunes on order) and the trani lag or sluggish throttle response still exists on all of them. What going on? The canned seem to be good in every other category but that one. Any suggestions?

If you are comparing this to the experience you were having with an Edge, before you upgraded it to a Gryphon, then you will get the same response. The canned tunes on the Gryphon are the same as the ones on the Edge.

But, now you've got Bill working on your side and he should be able to tell you what's happening, or, give you a tune that will fix it.

It's also possible, now that I think of it, that a dealer reflash could take care of the throttle lag. Have you discussed it with him (I'm assuming your truck is still in warranty)?

Regardless, you've taken a good first step. Bill WILL help you get through this!

- Jack

This is my first tuner so I have nothing to compare it to but bone stock and there is little if any difference. Yes my truck is still under warranty. How would a reflash help? This would mean that there has been a problem since the beginning. I have heard of several others from other forums having the same issues. I also heard that ford tuned in a lag on purpose. I also wondered if it may have something to do with the fact that my truck uses a computer driven throttle instead of a cable.

Hi again Kirt -

I think it is quite likely there has been a problem since the beginning, and, as Ford finds out about these things, they often come up with fixes, which in this case, may be a reflash.

Regardless - I'd return the tune to stock and then remove the Gryphon. (Do this any time you take your truck to the dealer)! Tell him what your problem is and then ask if he knows if there are any TSBs, possibly involving PCM reflashes, that might help? I really doubt Ford tuned in a "lag", at least not one from a standing start, if that's what you have.

The computer driven throttle has been with us since at least 2004, maybe earlier. My truck has it. I used to have a lag in downshifts during passing. That went away with my Gryphon. I never had any kind of lag from a standing start.

If I'm not understanding something, please try to re-explain your problem.

- Jack

From the factory, Ford intentionally incorporate Tip-In torque management which they call "Shock Reduction" to prevent sudden shock to the driveline. This prevents a direct 1 to 1 relationship between your foot and the throttle blade resulting in the lag.

On some 2007 and 2008 trucks, there have been updates from Ford that actually help reduce some of this lag along with addressing a shift-flare issue on some strategies. In most cases, the Gryphon or Evolution will reduce or even eliminate this lag but because of the large number of strategies released each year, there are some strategies that need a little extra attention in order to achieve the desired results.

I see you included your "Box Code" in you information but, if you could, please provide the current HEX code for your vehicle and I'll get a closer look to see what we can do to help.

Take care.

I've a 08 and had the Lag then i plugged in the Gryphon and the Lag has gone,dealership has never flashed my PCM that i know of.

Thanks for the great info. No one else has been able to explain the lag to me including the factory. I hope you can help make it go away. I buy the tires so if I want to burn them off that should my choice. I sent an E-mail on friday with the hex # and my gryphon serial #. If you didn't get them or they aren't the correct #'s let me know.:bow:

That's impressive. I am continually impressed by your :teacher:

I think we ALL are! :2thumbs: And, I think this is the difference between someone who knows how to use tuning software, and someone like Bill who understands all the side effects that can occur when tuning a vehicle.

- Jack

It is nice. And, a very important issue, especially when you hear of all these guys suggesting the different gears I wonder if they realize the full extent of the change on the vehicle.

I seriously doubt it.

I was amused by one (or maybe more than one) poster on the f150 forum that thought the reason you lost power by going to bigger tires was due to the "increased inertia" of the larger ones, making it harder to start them "spinning". Totally missed the real effect of the larger tire acting like a higher gear, turning slower at a given engine RPM, and giving you less mechanical advantage during acceleration.

- Jack

:smiley_roll1::smiley_roll1::hehe::notallthere: :smiley_roll1:

Inertia....good lord.

Well, inertia does account for some loss in acceleration as there is some power lost in trying to spin twice the weight (or more) of larger tires and wheels. The biggest loss though, as you pointed out, comes from the resulting change in effective gear ratio. That is much more brutal on performance.

Yup, I know there IS some increase in inertia, but, once you get it spinning, it's like a flywheel - it wants to keep spinning. And, the radius of gyration is not twice what it is for smaller tires, so, I don't really think inertia is much of a factor, right?

- Jack

I was merely reflecting on the affects of acceleration, not sustained movement. You are correct that once it is moving it takes much less effort to keep it in motion.


For the sake of discussion, here's one thing to ponder; Let's assume you go from a 31.5" tire (average stock height) to a 35" tire (most common upgrade) while keeping the same 20" rim.

Surface area of the wheel = 314.159 square inches.
Surface area of a 31.5" tire assy. = 779.311 square inches.
Surface area of a 35" tire assy. = 962.224 square inches.

31.5" tire alone = 465.152 square inches.
35" tire alone = 647.954 square inches.

This is means at a minimum, the 35" tire has roughly 39.3% more surface area and presumably 39.3% more mass (or weight, whichever you prefer).

I know this doesn't seem like much, but when you figure in the fact that a 35" tire would have a thicker sidewall to allow for the taller sidewall height, is usually wider than the average stock tire, and often has an aggressive tread pattern which may add to the total mass, the average 35" tire may be more in the area of 60% greater mass (weight) then the average stock tire. Throw in some "bling" wheels and the ante just went up.

I can't remember the exact figures, but when we swapped out the stocker tires on the '06 F-150 for a set of 35"s and new wheels, the 35" wheel and tire assy. was almost TWICE the weight of the stockers. Of course, the stock wheels were the standard Ford 6 spoke variety and the replacements where solid "western" type with bead-locks, which I'm sure added a bit of weight.

One thing to note as well... After spending years as a mechanic and changing tires of all sizes, a 35" tire assy. will often take up to twice as long to spin up to speed (150 RPM) for balancing when compared to a standard stock tire assy. will. This nice thing about this comparison is that the HP of the electric motor (usually around 2HP) doesn't change and there's no transmission or differential to factor in. The ONLY difference is the wheel assy.

Of course, I'm not even getting into the torque factors due to the larger radius of the tire and the energy needed to move the mass at the edge of the new tire radius as those calculations are frankly a little more involved than I care to even think about right now.

Anyway, just food for thought.

Your point is well taken, and I'm possibly wasting everyone's time - you could even be writing tunes! :) (But, you need a break from work now and then).

Good observation about the spin up time using a balancing machine. That DOES clearly show the effect of getting the greater mass into motion. I grant that there IS that effect, but as a percentage of the total power delivered by the truck's engine, I think the tire mass effect is greatly overshadowed by the loss in mechanical advantage due to the greater distance between the axle and the road. And, that was what I thought I was saying.

Doesn't an aggressive, wider tread contribute more to "rolling resistance" than anything else? That's certainly the effect I feel between a mountain bike and a road bike when pedaling or coasting.

There clearly IS some optimum gear ratio and tire size combination for each of the following though:

1. Acceleration (0 - 60)
2. 1/4 mile speed
3. Fuel economy at cruise
4. Max top end speed (accelerator floored)

And, unless I'm totally out to lunch here, I think each one of these goals requires a somewhat different combination.

I suppose I'm reacting to the "one size fits all" mentality I've observed by some posters in other forums where they seem to think they can mod their trucks in such a way as to get all four of the goals I cited above at once. I'm especially amused when they complain about economy after putting in mods to improve acceleration.

- Jack

Well, I guess the increased surface area and type (MT/AT) would have a huge impact on the co efficient of friction as well...hmmmm. Food for thought as I ponder tire choices...

There's a reason racing cars run "slicks", isn't there? The tread is for improved traction on wet, slick or "loose" surfaces, but it hurts you on dry pavement. And, if you never had to turn corners, like running on the salt flats, you'd want the narrowest tires you could mount.

- Jack

Andddd now I'm going to totally ruin the quality of the coversation here...

I've got a 06' 5.4L 4x4 with the 3.55LS, and now it's got 275/60/20R cooper zeons to deal with (32.99") which has robbed it of a decent amount of performance. I've been searching for a few days now on this forum and other f150 forums for what my best option would be. So far the vast majority of responses I've gotten have reccomended I buy a grypon (which I've been considering already) and rolling the dice on my extended warranty of 5 yrs 75k (I'm at 25k). Only two people have suggested regearing and my Ford dealer basically thought I was a mental case for asking them if they could install them for me. I've accepted the fact that my knowledge on this subject is severely lacking. I'm not a total lead foot, but I do enjoy performance. I work with one of your customers (glockwinger) and he giggled like a school kid when he got his custom tunes. I'm intrigued... :yikes2:

Is your Gryphon the answer? Or should I be looking at new gears? Or both?

Thanks, Aaron

I'd say just go with Gryphon first. That may completely satisfy you........but if not, then I'd throw some deeper gears in it.

With your new tires you now have an effective ratio of 3.34. You would technically need a 3.76 ratio just to get back to the feel of stock. So purchasing 3.73's won't even quite get you there. You would want 4.10's or 4.56's if you decide to do gears as well. That's my opinion anyway :)
BTW - Don't worry about the Ford dealer looking at you funny!

sorry to drag up an older thread, but this issue is something I'm wondering about presently. I'm planning a Gryphon purchase, and larger tires as well. With my stock 3.55 gear ratio some people are telling me 35's are too tall and my tranny life will be reduced along with a loss of power. Can a custom tune accommodate this, as in more torque and possibly firmer shifts/less slippage? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Custo tunes can help alot with firmness and shifting but in certain circumstances such as larger wheels the first step I'd take is regearing to 4.10 or 4.56. The other step I'd take is doing this valve body modification. Like these:http://www.troyerperformance.com/cgi...on%3BAutomatic
Then I would proceed to a custom tune.
JMHO

Lars is right on, Dave. A programmer is not going to give you much at all with 35" tires and 3.55 gears. I really think 4.10 gears are the way to go with those tires. The shift kit would be fine, but I'd get the gears first. (And, if you have 4WD, you need gears for both the front and back). It may get a bit expensive.

- Jack

hmm, I traded a few emails with Bill yesterday and he didn't seem to feel it was going to be a big deal. I'll have to see for myself when I get it all together.

Just for reference, what Dave is talking about is a discussion I had with him about gears and tires. As I explained to him, our Expedition runs a 3.31 gear and we have 285/75-17 tires which come out to about 33". If you do the math, it's really close to a 3.55 with 35" tires, as far as RPM/MPH goes. We haven't had any problem form our Expy, which not only is undergeared, but also weighs more than the average F-150 and in fact I can stomp just about any F-150 in the area while breaking the tires loose from a dead stop.

What many folks forget is that the PCM operates on a load-based strategy. The higher the load, the more power it will allow the engine to make. This is why 4.88 geared trucks often fall short in performance when compared to 4.10 or 3.73 geared counterparts.

Thanks Bill

Over the next few weeks my bone stock FX4 is getting a lift, 35's and Gryphon, I'm pretty excited!