Tuning for injectors
 

I have been running PHP tunes for about 2 years now. Everything has been great. I have finally saved the money for a set of stage one injectors. The current mods are intake, exhaust, gauges, intercooler, built trans.

So my truck is mainly used for towing. Typical load is approx. 10k. I tow on a very regular basis. Last night when I was coming home I paid close attention to my gauges to see what all was going on. On the long grades egt would stick right at 1100 degrees. Boost was right about 15lbs. Trans was in drive not overdrive. Cruising about 55mph with 9 k behind me.

In my mind I would think that adding extra fuel would allow my egts to be to high. Am I right in this thinking? Or does it come down to tunes? I just dont want to drop 1500 bucks on injectors and tunes only to have power that I cannot use.

Truck is a1996 f250 7.3 211k

Extra fuel = more heat. If you use the truck nearly exclusively as a tow rig, stick with stock injectors. If you install higher capacity injectors, any additional power you make over what you have now will just cause you to keep a close eye on your pyrometer. Stage one injectors will run identical to the injectors you have now unless you have the tuning changed to add more injector on-time......which will cause more heat.

I was afraid you might tell me that :matt-roloff:

I can assure you that upgraded injectors can have a significant impact on egts.
I recently fixed my excessive egts I was getting on DP tuner by replacing it with php chip. Could not get over 1100 deg wot empty.
Just added 250/100 injectors along with custom tunes and I can hit 1200 pretty easy now. Makes me almost wish I never did the injectors. Still not nearly as bad as egts when I had the DP, but not a whole lot better either. However I have a ton more power.

I am not sure what effects you would have with stage 1's though. Might just follow Cleatus's rec.

The last thing I want is problems. I think I might have to stay with what I have. Now what do I do with the grand I have stashed away. Hmm .500 smith and wesson:evillol:

Herein lies the problem....

I HATE the word "UPGRADE" because more often than not, the "upgrade" isn't much more than a headache or a total waste. I do not use that term for ANYTHING regarding aftermarket parts on a truck (heck, I don't use that word for anything, period because it bothers me so much). It's become such an overused term that means very little....

On a side note, my computer just reminded me of a Java Update that's now available; time to close that bubble and ignore it.

...anyway, it means very little because NOTHING that one can do to a truck is actually going to make it any better in every regard than the stock hardware. If you want more power, by all means install higher-capacity injectors and add larger nozzle orifices if you want to. However, to believe that the truck will run, drive, maintain EGT, or even get better fuel economy than stock is only proof that you're fooling yourself. The internet and it's wonderful forum communities have got every Tom, ****, and Harry thinking that "upgrading" is the only way to make the truck better or more useful. It couldn't be farther from the truth because in this instance, installing "upgraded" injectors is akin to willfully lighting one thousand dollars on fire and complaining about it the whole time.


He could buy the injectors if he wants to and not even change his tuning (stock or aftermarket). However, it will run and drive exactly as it does right now. AA code injectors are identical to AC (160/0%) injectors save for the increase in fuel capacity. If you're familiar with the HEUI injection system (or even just the "fuel side" of the injector), you know that there is a fixed capacity of fuel available per injection event. The AA code injectors' capacity is just over half of what the AC codes are capable of holding at one time depending on who you listen to (good ol' internet and the "facts" that are out there). If installing 160/0% (AC code) injectors into a 1995-1997 F-series without tuning, the injectors will only be commanded "on" long enough to inject the same amount of fuel as the stock AA injectors. If exhaust gas temperature is marginal now while towing, then it will be even hotter when more fuel is injected to make more power. Keep in mind though that the specific injector change you're considering won't inherently make the EGT higher.....but the tuning required to make the injectors a worthwhile investment will.

In closing, if your truck runs fine now (no injector problems), I wouldn't waste my money given the usage of your truck.

Thank you for your help and more importantly your honesty.

I agree with you in this particular application about the injectors, however I would like to point out and have you clarify (as you've eluded to your dislike of upgrades, on more than one occasion), how "NOTHING" is better than stock hardware. The 6.0 powerstroke is the example I will use, but it is not limited to one manufacturer. The OEM's have all been know to cut corners to keep costs down or have there hands tied by emission regulations. How do you explain the EGR cooler failures and the "improved" aftermarket ones? Also the FICM reprograms and ECM rollbacks? Or something as simple as the intercooler hoses that were known to blow off? And that's just one engine, I'm sure we could go on and on, yes there are a lot of snake-oil products out there, but there are also many quality aftermarket products that, if not always better are at least equal to OEM's, for a fraction of the cost. The Agricultural market is just as bad, there are certain parts that come from the same manufacturer but cost twice as much from the dealer. So the price alone makes it better than stock hardware. Personally, when I see new equipment with problems and warranty work or repeated failures of of the same component it makes me wonder what else they overlooked or could have done better. Just to clarify I don't expect them to be perfect, things break, I get it, but you can't just blindly follow anything or anybody either, balance is key. Just a friendly rebuttal, -Cheers.

The 6.0L is garbage. It started out as garbage and will never be anything but garbage. I won't even look at one cross-eyed for fear it might blow a head gasket. That's why Bill does those.

I guess I should elaborate.

You're right. A lot of OEM stuff fails too due to the economics involved in producing a vehicle. However, a lot of these failures are also due to experimental periods when the EPA steps in and (for lack of a better term) messes up the whole deal. In addition, competition in the market also plays a role.

You used the 6.0L as an example. In International/Navistar trim, the VT365 was rated at a much lower horsepower level and was programmed to run significantly fewer RPM. Keep in mind that the medium-duty truck market wasn't as emissions-strangled at the time by our friends at the EPA so they weren't equipped with EGR at the time. You don't hear of too many failures with those trucks (at least the failures that were common to Ford F250/350 trucks). Ford stepped in and said, "We can make this engine turn 4000 RPM and make 320+ horsepower!!" All the while, the EPA mandated the usage of EGR on this engine since it was a light-duty truck.

Ford's adoption of the VT365 was completely EPA-mandated. Ford needed an engine to replace the T444E and the 6.0L was rushed to market with many shortcomings. Obviously, we see where that got us.......

Over the years, Ford has inundated it's customers with reflash after reflash after reflash; each subsequent reflash reduced power and made the engine less efficient. Unfortunately, this probably wasn't an EPA mandate, but an upper echelon call to reduce warranty work due to aggressive factory tuning that may have been causing head gasket and/or EGR cooler failures. Basically, Ford was trying to save money on warranty work.

Don't get me wrong. I worked as a GM technician for a decade and have been a professional automotive technician since 1999. I now work on heavy equipment and I have seen MANY, MANY failed factory attempts at making quality machines. My main beef is with the "requisite" parts that are constantly pushed on people to make their trucks "better", when, in fact, they're just throwing their money away.

I can agree with Cleatus's comment about trying to make my truck better, but I have actually thrown money away.

Cleatus, I'm am curious what your truck is and have you done anything to it?

If I started over, I would probably do gauges, php tunes, exhaust, and something to cure turbo surge. Oh, I would also do a Tamar style air filter or AIS. Everything else I have done, probably wasn't worth the money, with the exception of my BTS tranny. I better quit now:rofl:

Good thread for those of us that aren't drag racers. I hate to say the word but I have made some solid upgrades to my truck that I highly recommend.

The Ford AIS air intake system is a huge improvement in quality and filtration over the stock system that is known to fail.

The auxiliary transmission cooler allows me to use the truck as Ford intended. Even at stock power levels the stock trans fluid cooler is so small that the trans will overheat in normal conditions.

Neither of these added power but they were upgrades for reliability and dependability. I think it is too much to say that all changes from OEM are downgrades. I do understand your point though, that some mods are best left undone.

I have been waiting for a thread like this for awhile , though I thought
Cleatus would say "with tunes we can do anything!" Now that my
reality has been shattered what do you think about larger injectors just
to maximize the tunes you have. I know with my stock sticks I am only
getting 60 out of 80 on my daily driver. I was just thinking of stage 1
Injectors to help pull my trailer on a daily basis. My trailer is only 4I in weight.

If a truck's transmission fluid is overheating (stock or otherwise), one needs to rethink the way they're using the truck.

An automatic transmission's fluid gets hot because of two things:
1: The torque converter clutch is never commanded to be applied. Fluid coupling creates a ton of heat in the fluid. Low speed (typically under 45 MPH) will cause the torque converter clutch to remain disengaged (depending on tuning). That's the main reason transmission temperatures soar in around-town driving.

2: There is friction material not holding against the steel plates. "Slippage" is a major cause of heat and the transmission will not live long under these circumstances. Whether the transmission is just old or there is too much power input, slippage is death to a transmission; and it will NEVER get better. Once the frictions are glazed and the steels begin to get hot spots, the transmission needs a rebuild.

It does not matter one bit about whether the truck is stock or not but whether the transmission is healthy and can withstand additional power input. An additional cooler (or a larger one) is always a good idea and I won't knock anyone for adding one. Just know that masking problems isn't a good practice.

Huh? I'll be the first to tell anyone that nobody's tunes are perfect and that nobody can overcome physical hardware limitations regardless of what is promised by a tuning company.

I'm too damn honest to be a salesperson. That's why I keep my PHP job as a cubicle jockey.


I will start by saying that if your EGT is high now (or hard to keep below 1200 degrees), then don't even consider "larger" injectors for towing. If you want more power, we can certainly do that. Just don't expect to tow anything with more RWHP than what you are making now. The additional power can be used for short bursts on a 1995-1997 truck, but you'll find that EGT climbs like a mad chief when more fuel is introduced. Heck, last week I had one heck of a time with my 1995 while towing 6500 lbs. in 95 degree heat on a tune that is marginally more powerful than stock; I'd venture to guess 40-50 HP, but it's a new tune and I haven't put the truck on a dyno with that tune yet.

I'm thinking of sending in the AA injectors in the 1995 to have some 80% nozzles put on them. EGT is the reason. It's perfectly logical to expect a slight EGT reduction with larger nozzles (to a point) since I don't plan on doing anything else to the stock truck.

Oh don't get me wrong, I know tunes can't do everything.
I can tell you with the few mods that I have and with
your tunes I can live with what I have if I have to.
I am worried about what you stated about towing under 45
because that is 80% of my towing. I think I need to look
into a good Trans cooler.
I appreciate your total and honest opinion.

If you're running a stock transmission cooler on a 1995-1997 truck, by all means get a larger cooler. The stock transmission cooler on an older Powerstroke is barely large enough to function as a power steering cooler. Come to think of it, the stock transmission cooler on an old Powerstroke looks just like the power steering coolers Ford used on the 70's boat cars (my ex-wife's Torino had one).

I have three coolers on my 1995 that are connected in parallel. It stays nice and cool. However, I don't worry about temperatures below 240 degrees.

Synthetic oil also makes a noticeable difference in the transmission.