does Gryphon allow for tranny to keep learning?

[Jackpine]

Mike, that's a great question and I hope Bill answers it. My own opinion is no, there is no "learning" with a custom tune. I base this on two reasons:

1. My shift feel seems just as good now as when I first programmed the truck about 2 years ago.

2. If there WAS a "relearn" mechanism, it would kind of defeat the purpose of custom tunes.

However, I have no real facts to base this opinion on. So, it will be nice to hear from "The Man"!

- Jack

[ballisticmike]

thx for the response. It begs the question... why does the factory include the so-called learning aspect at all? I dont know anyone who likes it, or can say "yes it improved my ride over time thru its learning curve". Anyone? And what parameters does the brain have... is it simply shift point/rpm for the tranny or is there more to it? I dont like 'drive by wire' at all actually. I miss the old throttle cables. I would take the return spring and adjust the tension to how i liked it... true customization

[88Racing]

From what I understand the pcm's ability to learn can altered by new parameters in the custom tune but now has a new set in which to learn in.
The adaptive learning process needs to be in place for all of our real world situations.
If it was turned off a truck at sea level wouldn't run or operate well in the mountains.
It encompasses a lot of different operations throughout the whole power train. Bill might have a better explination though.

[Jackpine]

Originally Posted by ballisticmike

thx for the response. It begs the question... why does the factory include the so-called learning aspect at all? I dont know anyone who likes it, or can say "yes it improved my ride over time thru its learning curve". Anyone? And what parameters does the brain have... is it simply shift point/rpm for the tranny or is there more to it? I dont like 'drive by wire' at all actually. I miss the old throttle cables. I would take the return spring and adjust the tension to how i liked it... true customization

There IS a reason for drive by wire - it's easier to correct a problem (or a perceived problem) with a software adjustment than it is to fiddle with "hardware", which may include replacing actual parts with a corresponding cost in labor. But the downside is that the software engineer's idea of an ideal setup may not match yours.

And, looking at all the trouble Toyota is having with their throttle problem (which now possibly MAY include electronic control problems as well as mechanical ones) does not bode well for the rest of the industry that has also adopted electronic throttle control. Consider: All we have to have is an accelerator Pedal Position Sensor (PPS) that has somehow electronically failed into the WOT position, and the PCM will command the Throttle Position Actuator into the full open position. This COULD, of course be countered by a Brake Sensor that, if activated, tells the PCM to ignore the PPS and close the throttle, regardless of the pedal position.

Since the PCM DOES monitor the brakes, I think, on an ABS equipped vehicle, this seems a change that could easily be accomplished with a PCM flash (software fix).

Probably, it would have been better all along to simply follow the KISS principle.

- Jack

[Longshot270]

Originally Posted by JackandJanet

There IS a reason for drive by wire - it's easier to correct a problem (or a perceived problem) with a software adjustment than it is to fiddle with "hardware", which may include replacing actual parts with a corresponding cost in labor. But the downside is that the software engineer's idea of an ideal setup may not match yours.

And, looking at all the trouble Toyota is having with their throttle problem (which now possibly MAY include electronic control problems as well as mechanical ones) does not bode well for the rest of the industry that has also adopted electronic throttle control. Consider: All we have to have is an accelerator Pedal Position Sensor (PPS) that has somehow electronically failed into the WOT position, and the PCM will command the Throttle Position Actuator into the full open position. This COULD, of course be countered by a Brake Sensor that, if activated, tells the PCM to ignore the PPS and close the throttle, regardless of the pedal position.

Since the PCM DOES monitor the brakes, I think, on an ABS equipped vehicle, this seems a change that could easily be accomplished with a PCM flash (software fix).

Probably, it would have been better all along to simply follow the KISS principle.

- Jack

Funny you bring up the issue of the PPS sensor going out while driving. In Australia a while back I heard of a case where that happened to someone. He had his car on cruise control at 60 or so when something messed up. He drove against his will while the cops tried to figure something out. Luckily someone had the wonderful idea of using the the parking brake to get the vehicle slow enough to stop safely.

I dont really like the electronic stuff either. A friend of mine with an older powerstroke had that sensor go out on him. Caused quite a bit of trouble for him.

[88Racing]

Harley went with this also in 2008 on the touring class.
The first year it caused a bit of problems but it wasn't sticking.
The problem was the sluggish response that was programmed in.
Riders were killing the bikes at take off from a stop.
Harley did resovle the issue by issuing an updated program for the pcm.
Thank goodness no one got hurt.
More embarissing than anything else.

[OUMX117]

Originally Posted by longshot270

Funny you bring up the issue of the PPS sensor going out while driving. In Australia a while back I heard of a case where that happened to someone. He had his car on cruise control at 60 or so when something messed up. He drove against his will while the cops tried to figure something out. Luckily someone had the wonderful idea of using the the parking brake to get the vehicle slow enough to stop safely.

I dont really like the electronic stuff either. A friend of mine with an older powerstroke had that sensor go out on him. Caused quite a bit of trouble for him.

Haha these stories on the news where people don't know what to do when the car is putting the gas at WOT drive me crazy. I wonder how NONE of these people thought "Hey maybe if I turn the key off the engine won't be running anymore". Or maybe put the car in neutral? Apply brakes? Any of the above actions can prevent a catastrophe. LOL

[Jackpine]

Originally Posted by OUMX117

Haha these stories on the news where people don't know what to do when the car is putting the gas at WOT drive me crazy. I wonder how NONE of these people thought "Hey maybe if I turn the key off the engine won't be running anymore". Or maybe put the car in neutral? Apply brakes? Any of the above actions can prevent a catastrophe. LOL

It's easy to smile at this unless it happens to you (and, OUMX, I'm not taking potshots at you, I'm just talking from experience).

I used to own a 70's era T-Bird and I remember one day having the accelerator pedal stick down (in town). My fist reaction was to step on the brake. This had a slowing effect but not as much as you'd think, because the engine was at several thousand rpms and it just seemed to add more power as the car slowed a bit. Next, I turned off the ignition - this helped too, but not as much as you'd want because at that rpm and with the pedal down, the engine "dieseled" and just kept running. I finally hooked my toe under the pedal and lifted it, which allowed me to bring the car to a safe stop. My heart rate was pretty high at this point. It didn't occur to me to shift into neutral.

In my case, a floor mat had caught the pedal and caused it to stay down. I've been VERY careful about floor mats ever since that incident.

But, to modern vehicles: The brake MAY stop or slow the acceleration, but the vehicle is still going to be hard to manage. My guess is, it won't stop the vehicle by itself. Turning the ignition OFF may work now, since the PCM controls fuel delivery and it should shutdown fuel to the engine so that it won't diesel like mine did. However, you DO risk engaging the ignition interlock that might lock the steering wheel in some models. I haven't checked Janet's Toyota to see if the wheel would become locked when in a forward gear with the ignition off, and I need to do that. Locking the steering could be a disaster.

People will warn about losing power steering and power brakes with the ignition off, but that's not really a big deal.You just have to push harder on the pedal and perhaps use more force on the wheel, if that's all you lose.

Finally, shifting into neutral: I think this is the second thing you should try right after stepping on the brake (which is naturally the first thing you do). You'll certainly cause the engine to rev to its limit by doing this, but the rev limiter probably won't allow the engine to self-destruct. And besides even if it did, if you don't die like the policeman's family did, it's worth it. Once you get the vehicle under control, you can turn the ignition off.

The important thing is to "have a plan", because I guarantee you will not be thinking very clearly if this happens to you.

- Jack

[OUMX117]

Originally Posted by JackandJanet

It's easy to smile at this unless it happens to you (and, OUMX, I'm not taking potshots at you, I'm just talking from experience).

I used to own a 70's era T-Bird and I remember one day having the accelerator pedal stick down (in town). My fist reaction was to step on the brake. This had a slowing effect but not as much as you'd think, because the engine was at several thousand rpms and it just seemed to add more power as the car slowed a bit. Next, I turned off the ignition - this helped too, but not as much as you'd want because at that rpm and with the pedal down, the engine "dieseled" and just kept running. I finally hooked my toe under the pedal and lifted it, which allowed me to bring the car to a safe stop. My heart rate was pretty high at this point. It didn't occur to me to shift into neutral.

In my case, a floor mat had caught the pedal and caused it to stay down. I've been VERY careful about floor mats ever since that incident.

But, to modern vehicles: The brake MAY stop or slow the acceleration, but the vehicle is still going to be hard to manage. My guess is, it won't stop the vehicle by itself. Turning the ignition OFF may work now, since the PCM controls fuel delivery and it should shutdown fuel to the engine so that it won't diesel like mine did. However, you DO risk engaging the ignition interlock that might lock the steering wheel in some models. I haven't checked Janet's Toyota to see if the wheel would become locked when in a forward gear with the ignition off, and I need to do that. Locking the steering could be a disaster.

People will warn about losing power steering and power brakes with the ignition off, but that's not really a big deal.You just have to push harder on the pedal and perhaps use more force on the wheel, if that's all you lose.

Finally, shifting into neutral: I think this is the second thing you should try right after stepping on the brake (which is naturally the first thing you do). You'll certainly cause the engine to rev to its limit by doing this, but the rev limiter probably won't allow the engine to self-destruct. And besides even if it did, if you don't die like the policeman's family did, it's worth it. Once you get the vehicle under control, you can turn the ignition off.

The important thing is to "have a plan", because I guarantee you will not be thinking very clearly if this happens to you.

- Jack

No I understand what you are saying completely, so no worries I bet it would be a bit hard to think at first as well. I just heard a phone call on the radio the other day where they played the 911 call that came in from some people that were in either a prius or a corolla and it was going like 100mph and they couldn't stop it. I know it takes a long time to get one of those cars to 100mph so I think the real problem is that drivers nowadays don't fully understand what the different controls on their vehicles are capable of doing. Because if you had the 20-25 seconds that it would take to get that car up to that speed (being optimistic of the corolla's performance capabilities, haha) a properly trained driver should be able to figure out a way to cut the power. Not saying it should be a first instinct to everyone, but after you figured out waht was happening I think most people should be able to fix this problem. Another problem with today's drivers is that they are scared of their vehicles and have no idea how to control them in a potentially dangerous situation. Take for example what happened to me last summer (not saying I am the best driver by any means but I can handle my vehicles to their full potential, haha) I was driving down the highway at about 70-72mph and the trailer in front of me hit a bump and launched a wheelbarrow off and directly at me. I was in the left lane and there was a car to my right. i had to rip the wheel to the left and put it into the grassy median at about 65mph I was able to maintain control of the truck by staying on the throttle and keeping the truck moving forward and steering it back onto the road. After that I had to stop and check my pants, hahaha. But there was no damage to my truck or the people that were in it. I think if drivers were forced to learn how to control their vehicles in more extreme situations there would ba alot fewer wrecks. There's my $.02 about why I think there are so many wrecks today. That was a heck of a tangent, haha.

[Dfishrmn]

Originally Posted by JackandJanet

Mike, that's a great question and I hope Bill answers it. My own opinion is no, there is no "learning" with a custom tune. I base this on two reasons:

1. My shift feel seems just as good now as when I first programmed the truck about 2 years ago.

2. If there WAS a "relearn" mechanism, it would kind of defeat the purpose of custom tunes.

However, I have no real facts to base this opinion on. So, it will be nice to hear from "The Man"!

- Jack

Bill did post a reply to a similiar question in the past but am not sure where it is posted. He referenced the tranny will calibrate according to driving style. If you drive more conservatively it will "learn" and soften the shifts. If you drive hard it will firm them up. I believe this applied to custom tunes also, but will wait from Bill to confirm.