Ford's on Top!

[Jackpine]

Hi John -

I suspect we aren't too far apart on this at all. I too, have very little use for unions in these times.

I remember once when I was in the Air Force, I was appointed to investigate a union grievance in the Motor Pool (civilian workers). I found the grievance was one of several that had been filed by the Shop Steward (an apprentice mechanic) on behalf of himself. He felt he was not being paid at the appropriate level. Interestingly, the only one on his side was the Union Representative. Everyone else in the shop told me he was a lazy sh*t who was out sick all the time, or if he was there, he was always engaged in "union business". So, I put all that in my report (but was never told what happened later).

I also agree with you that the feeder airline pilots don't make much at all. Our oldest son is a 1st officer with United, and he's seen his pay cut a lot. Happily, for the next year or so, he seems to be back on full time with the Navy Reserve, and he's happier there.

And, I'm not totally opposed to pay cuts either, as long as they're across the board and effect EVERYONE, including management, by the same percentage (with no hidden perks for the corner office folks). Yes, if a company has to do that to survive, then everyone should just be happy to be working.

Lee Iacocca showed how to save a company without costing the taxpayers a dime. In fact, the Government MADE money by guaranteeing Chrysler's loans. Wish we had more leaders like him.

Peace brother. Hope the building industry turns around soon for you!

- Jack

[Power Hungry]

Men like Lee Iacocca, Ross Perot, and even Sam Walton (I'll catch crap for that last one, I'm sure) knew how to run a business.

The problem is when government gets in the way of... or gets involved in... private business. Unions are not business, they are government. Not Oval Office type of government mind you, but they are a governing body trying to control private business through influence and corporations have no choice but to yield to their pressure for fear of strikes. Unfortunately, it's always the consumer that suffers.

In a free enterprise system, a company should be able to hire or fire who they want and pay each person based on a negotiated amount at the time of hiring. If an employee doesn't like the wages, benefits, or anything else about the job, then they are free to quit. Where unions should be involved is ensuring a safe workplace that is free of harassment and prejudice, not making sure that Joe the Plumber is making more that Joe the Cop.

Capitol Hill is just another Union of sorts. There is a serious problem when lawmakers get big, fat paychecks and cushy benefits for signing a couple papers a year when Rescue Services, Police Officers and even Military Personnel get crap for risking their lives. Cap the Politician's salary to 75k a year (which is still twice what a teacher makes) and you'll quickly find that the only people who want to be politicians are people who really want to make a difference in the way our government is run.

I could go on and on but complaining about the government is a waste of breath at this point, and I have better things to do.

[johnnyd]

Originally Posted by JackandJanet

Hi John -

I suspect we aren't too far apart on this at all. I too, have very little use for unions in these times.

I remember once when I was in the Air Force, I was appointed to investigate a union grievance in the Motor Pool (civilian workers). I found the grievance was one of several that had been filed by the Shop Steward (an apprentice mechanic) on behalf of himself. He felt he was not being paid at the appropriate level. Interestingly, the only one on his side was the Union Representative. Everyone else in the shop told me he was a lazy sh*t who was out sick all the time, or if he was there, he was always engaged in "union business". So, I put all that in my report (but was never told what happened later).

I also agree with you that the feeder airline pilots don't make much at all. Our oldest son is a 1st officer with United, and he's seen his pay cut a lot. Happily, for the next year or so, he seems to be back on full time with the Navy Reserve, and he's happier there.

And, I'm not totally opposed to pay cuts either, as long as they're across the board and effect EVERYONE, including management, by the same percentage (with no hidden perks for the corner office folks). Yes, if a company has to do that to survive, then everyone should just be happy to be working.

Lee Iacocca showed how to save a company without costing the taxpayers a dime. In fact, the Government MADE money by guaranteeing Chrysler's loans. Wish we had more leaders like him.

Peace brother. Hope the building industry turns around soon for you!

- Jack

Yeah, I'd say we have some similar view points too.

Happy Holidays and thanks :xmashappy:

Originally Posted by Power Hungry

Men like Lee Iacocca, Ross Perot, and even Sam Walton (I'll catch crap for that last one, I'm sure) knew how to run a business.

The problem is when government gets in the way of... or gets involved in... private business. Unions are not business, they are government. Not Oval Office type of government mind you, but they are a governing body trying to control private business through influence and corporations have no choice but to yield to their pressure for fear of strikes. Unfortunately, it's always the consumer that suffers.

In a free enterprise system, a company should be able to hire or fire who they want and pay each person based on a negotiated amount at the time of hiring. If an employee doesn't like the wages, benefits, or anything else about the job, then they are free to quit. Where unions should be involved is ensuring a safe workplace that is free of harassment and prejudice, not making sure that Joe the Plumber is making more that Joe the Cop.

Capitol Hill is just another Union of sorts. There is a serious problem when lawmakers get big, fat paychecks and cushy benefits for signing a couple papers a year when Rescue Services, Police Officers and even Military Personnel get crap for risking their lives. Cap the Politician's salary to 75k a year (which is still twice what a teacher makes) and you'll quickly find that the only people who want to be politicians are people who really want to make a difference in the way our government is run.

I could go on and on but complaining about the government is a waste of breath at this point, and I have better things to do.

I couldn't agree more, well spoken (or written rather)

[88Racing]

Okay guys don't bash the unions to hard now. Cause believe it or not you are a part of one The UNITED States of America. Unions get their constitutions from the constitution. Read the book The Jungle, it's about industrial revolution and how the common working man and immigrants got $hit on. Most of the unions today are involved with skills and these people go through the ranks from the ground up. I'll agree their are lazy bastards in the unions who don't deserve to work. The RATS in this country and the white collar workers sure like to take it out on them. Yes there are other ways for people to be trained to do a job. But it isn't the workers fault all the time that they are getting paid for what they do. Try going after the leaders of these organizations for once for they are the ones making the calls and not the worker. The workers can put there input in on their wages but in the end suits sit across the table from one another, negociate the contracts. Yes it will be voted on by the workers but not all the time the leaders are forth comming about the concesions in the contracts.

The auto mfg's are trouble primarely due to the fact that they are trying to buy their stock back from retirement accounts. Can you remember Enron same thing happening all over again just different companies. So which suits did this. The same three that show up to DC in three different corperate jets.

Lars

[Sburn]

First, I have to say that I've been on both sides of the table when it comes to laying people off. I've had to do that to people and I've had it done to me. I'm not happy to see Detroit's trouble hit so many so hard.

I see one of the problems that Detroit has is that they are now in a world where building cars has become a commodity. Want to know what the current market value of bolting wheels on cars all day in the USA is? Ask the guy down at your local Goodyear how much he makes per hour. It's probably 1/3 or 1/2 of what Detroit pays for the same job. And there's somebody on the other side of the world who do it and be very, very happy for 10% of that.

I feel bad that somebody once thought that they could buy a house, send the kids to school, get a really nice medical package and retirement for doing the identical job the Goodyear guy does for double or triple that rate. I hate to use the word, "unsustainable", but that way of doing business in the USA is now officially over and never to return.

In world of commodity products and labor, there's always going to be somebody who can undercut on price due to their location, overhead, no benefits, lax environmental standards, etc...etc...

The way to compete in that scenario is to do either do something that nobody else does or to do what everybody else does, but do it faster, with higher quality, and with quicker and better service. And if we don't find a way to do it, somebody in Bangalore or Beijing -- who really really wants a refrigerator and a TV set like we have, will do it first.

"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle awakens. He has only one thought on his mind: To be able to run faster than the fastest lion. If he cannot, then he will be eaten.

Every morning in Africa a lion awakens. He has only one thought on his mind: To be able to run faster than the slowest gazelle. If he cannot, he will die of hunger.

Whether you choose to be a gazelle or a lion is of no consequence. It is enough to know that with the rising of the sun, you must run. And you must run faster than you did yesterday or you will die. This is the race of life."