OBDII "DO NOT REFLASH" Cover - Where can I get one?

[Power Hungry]

Jim,

First... good post. I agree with you 110% that not all dealerships are ignorant crooks and not all independents are great shops. I know from my post, it may certainly appear that I am biased and it probably has more to do with the fact that I have worked in both independent garages and dealerships and have seen both sides of the coin. Not to mention that I have had to fight with dealerships on behalf of a customer in order to get something warrantied.

In my day to day conversations with people, the best advice I can offer them is to get to know their local dealership. Find out what their policy is on aftermarket products and what they're willing to work with you on. The problem is, there are TOO MANY dealerships that are more than ready to chew a customer out and "VOID" their warranty merely because of the presence of aftermarket products such as a CAI, programmer, exhaust modification, or in a couple of extreme cases even gauges. As you mentioned, this is primarily handled on a local level and is not necessarily the viewpoint of Ford's corporate office. Maybe it's the "couple of bad apples spoiling the bunch" scenario, but in this case it's not so easy to see who the bad apples are.

Yes, the "policy" is that if a failure can be definitively linked to the use of an aftermarket product, then the warranty coverage on that component is void. The problem is that dealers often use scare tactics and threats that the warranty on the entire vehicle will be void. Unfortunately, most customers don't know any better and end up suffering because of these improper (not to mention illegal) practices and I can provide several examples of cases in which this has occurred.

Warranty repair is always a big issue and again, I have been on both sides of the repair industry. I've dealt with the warranty companies and have had to fight to get reimbursement on quality components. Often, the OEM components are less expensive (I don't like to use the word cheaper here) than a comparable quality aftermarket components. Sometimes they're not. It's up to the independent garage to make informed decisions about their customer's needs and provide parts and service that's in their best interests. Overall, quality independent shops can do just as good a job as the dealerships, and I honestly feel that sometimes an independent will often be better because they can generally have a closer relationship with the customer and can keep close track of the history of the vehicle.

Of course, there are far too many unreliable and crooked independent shops out there as well. Shops whose idea of a remanufactured component is a can of spray paint and their sales pitch consists of the line "I wouldn't let my kid drive that car" in order to scare people into buying parts or services. It happens. Again, getting to know your independent garage is important. Ask friends, co-workers, neighbors, and relatives who they use. For Pete's sake, check the BBB and see if they have any negative feedback. Ask to see their diagnostic equipment. A reputable shop will be happy to show you what equipment they use for repairs or diagnosis.

Here's the thing, if Ford, GM, and Dodge would relax their standpoint on aftermarket components and warranty, specifically with performance products, then I wouldn't hesitate to send people to the dealer. At this point though, it's a crapshoot and at least the independent garage doesn't have the ability to arbitrarily "void" your warranty.

BTW Jim... It's a sad day when you have to include Nissan in the FLM dealer list. Just kidding. I happen to love my 240SX.

[cleatus12r]

Originally Posted by jfuller5

Well, here is another opinion. Another more frequent stigma is tha the dealer costs more. I have 35 years experience with Ford Lincoln Mercury dealers and 12 with Nissan and Volvo and all too often the dealer ends up with the work that cant be figured out at the local level. The customer goes to "My Mechanic" and spends and spends then when at his wits end he unwillingly calls the dealer because of his misconception that he will spend more. Then after all the ill money spent he finds it can be repaired by the trained factory techs in a timely less expensive manner. One trip for repairs is always less expensive than multiple repeat repairs. We run into this day in and day out , you have no idea how many cars come to us for OBDII inspections that the customer is told that the Car will not communicate with the test equipment at the local mechanic. Then suprisingly we hook up and the car communicates fine, the isssue is that they are unable to diagnose the issue correctly so they send the to THE DEALER. Now the dealer is stuck with 2 issues, First is to diagnose the car and 2nd is to Fix the customer who has been brain washed into thinking the dealer is out to get them. Who is out to get who. Also a good point is raised on extended warranty insurance carriers, they will pay for repairs that are made other than at a dealer and are sometimes sold at local used car lots also. I have called many insurance carriers for authorization using aftermarket parts and the are ok but they will only pay fo the amount of Dealer List Prices and very often the OEM part costs less than the aftermarket. A good example of this is steering linkage, OEM is usualy cheaper and the Ins Co wont pay for Moog etc. All these insurance companys have databases that include make specific List prices and they will not pay more. Also i feel there is a misconception that all dealers will void warranty and that is started at the local level. I had a lady with remote car start call today that was told installing it would void her warranty. I expalained to here that that wasn't the case, it would only void the warranty on anything that it may damage or cause. Installation of aftermarket parts do not void Manufacturer warranties. the difference we are talking about here is the difference in people! There are good techs and bad techs good dealers and bad dealers , good nurses and bad, good lawyers and , well you get it . The real answer is to find the real people out there who care and give a s%***t o do business with, the ones you can trust and the ones you cant, they are out there in all walks of life and only the strong survive... Personally makes my skin crawl when i hear people knock dealers in general, or any people in general for that matter. Get to the bottom of it and deal with who you can trust and build a relationship. I haven;t seen that guy that knows it all yet, but i sdo know you need to deal with people that WANNA. To be good at anything you GOTTAWANNA !! Thanks for listening... Jim, Fixed Operations Manager Ford Lincoln Mercury Nissan and Volvo dealer

Thank you.

[Cajun]

So Jim, hypothetical question for you. I come into the dealership with my transmission slipping and my Gryphon sitting on the dash, what would you have to do at that point, keeping in mind I have the 100,000 mile warranty on the truck?

[jfuller5]

Cajun, All warranty claims coverage a based on CAUSAL PARTS. The parts that fails isn.t always the causal part, it some times is something else that caused this part to fail. a simple example of this is a vehicle has a check engine light on and the ECM is found defective, but in further diagnosis the tech finds that the ECM has been shorted out by a wiring harness that has chafed and rubbed thru, The causal part is the wiring harness and the failure is the ECM. If the wiring harness is a covered part by the warranty then the ECm is covered. In your exampple the trans neeeds to be diagnosed and the "Causal Part" needs to be identified was it an internal failure or was it caused by its controller. Most likely it will be internal, seldom do ECM's cause a trans failure. Just the presence of the GRYPHON does not constitute lack of warranty coverage. Over the phone or hanging from a tow truck will not tell anyone if it is covered , it needs to be diagnosed by a trained tech. Its easy to deny warranty coverage but I personally use one very easy to follow rule. If we go to court can we prove the vehicle was abused or the aftermarket part "caused" the failure? If it is not evident that the aftermarket parts caused the failure then go ahead and take care of the customer. Bottom line here is CUSTOMER SATISFACTION! and OWNER LOYALTY! any good dealer wiil promote itself and make a customer happy and see him again for other maintenance or repairs. Beleive me he will tell his friends. Hope this explains it. Jim


Sounds like Bill and Corey beleive in this from what I have read !

[jfuller5]

Bill, By the way you are 100% right on the NISSAN, they suck and their Company operation is even worse. Not sure they know they have customers. Jim

[jfuller5]

Hey Cody, My hat is off to you, A Factory Trained tech! It just doesnt get any better than that. JIm

[Cajun]

Thanks for the explanation Jim. The dealership where I bought my truck has a great reputation, especially for factory performance upgrades. I'm sure I'll give them a try, I'll also get some sense of the way they do business when I go in for my scheduled maintenance. In the 3 years since I've been here I've developed a relationship with a local indy through my old truck and my wife's car and they have taken good care of me. I'm sure they'll get some business from me as well.

[MercedesTech]

Originally Posted by jfuller5

Well, here is another opinion. Another more frequent stigma is tha the dealer costs more. I have 35 years experience with Ford Lincoln Mercury dealers and 12 with Nissan and Volvo and all too often the dealer ends up with the work that cant be figured out at the local level. The customer goes to "My Mechanic" and spends and spends then when at his wits end he unwillingly calls the dealer because of his misconception that he will spend more. Then after all the ill money spent he finds it can be repaired by the trained factory techs in a timely less expensive manner. One trip for repairs is always less expensive than multiple repeat repairs. We run into this day in and day out , you have no idea how many cars come to us for OBDII inspections that the customer is told that the Car will not communicate with the test equipment at the local mechanic. Then suprisingly we hook up and the car communicates fine, the isssue is that they are unable to diagnose the issue correctly so they send the to THE DEALER. Now the dealer is stuck with 2 issues, First is to diagnose the car and 2nd is to Fix the customer who has been brain washed into thinking the dealer is out to get them. Who is out to get who. Also a good point is raised on extended warranty insurance carriers, they will pay for repairs that are made other than at a dealer and are sometimes sold at local used car lots also. I have called many insurance carriers for authorization using aftermarket parts and the are ok but they will only pay fo the amount of Dealer List Prices and very often the OEM part costs less than the aftermarket. A good example of this is steering linkage, OEM is usualy cheaper and the Ins Co wont pay for Moog etc. All these insurance companys have databases that include make specific List prices and they will not pay more. Also i feel there is a misconception that all dealers will void warranty and that is started at the local level. I had a lady with remote car start call today that was told installing it would void her warranty. I expalained to here that that wasn't the case, it would only void the warranty on anything that it may damage or cause. Installation of aftermarket parts do not void Manufacturer warranties. the difference we are talking about here is the difference in people! There are good techs and bad techs good dealers and bad dealers , good nurses and bad, good lawyers and , well you get it . The real answer is to find the real people out there who care and give a s%***t o do business with, the ones you can trust and the ones you cant, they are out there in all walks of life and only the strong survive... Personally makes my skin crawl when i hear people knock dealers in general, or any people in general for that matter. Get to the bottom of it and deal with who you can trust and build a relationship. I haven;t seen that guy that knows it all yet, but i sdo know you need to deal with people that WANNA. To be good at anything you GOTTAWANNA !! Thanks for listening... Jim, Fixed Operations Manager Ford Lincoln Mercury Nissan and Volvo dealer

Good points.

Here, if we have to send you to the dealer, we can refund your money you spent with us. We will NEVER charge you a dime, if it wasn't the fix. All our work is guarenteed 100%. Can't even count how many times I had to eat cost. Had customers call with a broke down car 4 hours away. I jump in the truck/trailer and tools to see if I can help. Reputation means a lot to some people still (too few, but some).

A good independent is 100% of the time cheaper then the dealer. Thats fact. Cheaper rate, and usually cheaper parts. Around here dealer markup is 20%. Average labor rate is $140+. You assume people will find a bad independent. That would cost you. But lets assume they find a place, much like ours, where the dealership will call with questions. We pride ourselves with being the most upfront and honest place in CA.

They hate it, but many of the tech's know of my Dad. They will call to ask him questions about cars, in house.

The key is, like you said, meet the guys. Some dealerships its hard to meet your tech, and your not always going to have the same one. Most independents, you get to meet the guy turning the wrench, ask him questions, get HIS opinion, not some guy in a suit who doesn't know his butt from a rear-end. Plus, you can usually request who does the actual work. Listen to your friends. Word of mouth is usually the best method of finding anything reputable !

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of GREAT dealerships out there. I have dealt with quite a few. But I feel, the best independant would blow the pants off the best dealership. Just my opinion, I suggest you look around and try different spots to get your own. Sometimes they are hard to find, just gotta keep lookin !
- James

P.S.- Abother thing that gets me about OUR local dealerships anyways. They all work on commission. Too many times do customers come from there saying "X" said I need "this, this, and this" when in fact, all they need is "that". Becareful when working with a commission based anything !

[jfuller5]

Like I said, There are good and bad in any profession. My poiint was that not all dealers or independents are bad it all comes down to People. The Answer is and we should all ask ourselves, "How do I want to be Protrayed and remembered by My Customers?" Jim

[SinCityFX4]

Anyways, I would love a do not re-flash cover. IF anyone finds one please let me know.