Tuning for injectors

[toad]

I have been running PHP tunes for about 2 years now. Everything has been great. I have finally saved the money for a set of stage one injectors. The current mods are intake, exhaust, gauges, intercooler, built trans.

So my truck is mainly used for towing. Typical load is approx. 10k. I tow on a very regular basis. Last night when I was coming home I paid close attention to my gauges to see what all was going on. On the long grades egt would stick right at 1100 degrees. Boost was right about 15lbs. Trans was in drive not overdrive. Cruising about 55mph with 9 k behind me.

In my mind I would think that adding extra fuel would allow my egts to be to high. Am I right in this thinking? Or does it come down to tunes? I just dont want to drop 1500 bucks on injectors and tunes only to have power that I cannot use.

Truck is a1996 f250 7.3 211k

[cleatus12r]

Originally Posted by toad

In my mind I would think that adding extra fuel would allow my egts to be to high. Am I right in this thinking? Or does it come down to tunes? I just dont want to drop 1500 bucks on injectors and tunes only to have power that I cannot use.

Extra fuel = more heat. If you use the truck nearly exclusively as a tow rig, stick with stock injectors. If you install higher capacity injectors, any additional power you make over what you have now will just cause you to keep a close eye on your pyrometer. Stage one injectors will run identical to the injectors you have now unless you have the tuning changed to add more injector on-time......which will cause more heat.

[toad]

I was afraid you might tell me that

[INFRNL]

I can assure you that upgraded injectors can have a significant impact on egts.
I recently fixed my excessive egts I was getting on DP tuner by replacing it with php chip. Could not get over 1100 deg wot empty.
Just added 250/100 injectors along with custom tunes and I can hit 1200 pretty easy now. Makes me almost wish I never did the injectors. Still not nearly as bad as egts when I had the DP, but not a whole lot better either. However I have a ton more power.

I am not sure what effects you would have with stage 1's though. Might just follow Cleatus's rec.

[toad]

The last thing I want is problems. I think I might have to stay with what I have. Now what do I do with the grand I have stashed away. Hmm .500 smith and wesson

[cleatus12r]

Originally Posted by INFRNL

I can assure you that upgraded injectors can have a significant impact on egts.

Herein lies the problem....

I HATE the word "UPGRADE" because more often than not, the "upgrade" isn't much more than a headache or a total waste. I do not use that term for ANYTHING regarding aftermarket parts on a truck (heck, I don't use that word for anything, period because it bothers me so much). It's become such an overused term that means very little....

On a side note, my computer just reminded me of a Java Update that's now available; time to close that bubble and ignore it.

...anyway, it means very little because NOTHING that one can do to a truck is actually going to make it any better in every regard than the stock hardware. If you want more power, by all means install higher-capacity injectors and add larger nozzle orifices if you want to. However, to believe that the truck will run, drive, maintain EGT, or even get better fuel economy than stock is only proof that you're fooling yourself. The internet and it's wonderful forum communities have got every Tom, ****, and Harry thinking that "upgrading" is the only way to make the truck better or more useful. It couldn't be farther from the truth because in this instance, installing "upgraded" injectors is akin to willfully lighting one thousand dollars on fire and complaining about it the whole time.

Originally Posted by INFRNL

I am not sure what effects you would have with stage 1's though. Might just follow Cleatus's rec.

He could buy the injectors if he wants to and not even change his tuning (stock or aftermarket). However, it will run and drive exactly as it does right now. AA code injectors are identical to AC (160/0%) injectors save for the increase in fuel capacity. If you're familiar with the HEUI injection system (or even just the "fuel side" of the injector), you know that there is a fixed capacity of fuel available per injection event. The AA code injectors' capacity is just over half of what the AC codes are capable of holding at one time depending on who you listen to (good ol' internet and the "facts" that are out there). If installing 160/0% (AC code) injectors into a 1995-1997 F-series without tuning, the injectors will only be commanded "on" long enough to inject the same amount of fuel as the stock AA injectors. If exhaust gas temperature is marginal now while towing, then it will be even hotter when more fuel is injected to make more power. Keep in mind though that the specific injector change you're considering won't inherently make the EGT higher.....but the tuning required to make the injectors a worthwhile investment will.

In closing, if your truck runs fine now (no injector problems), I wouldn't waste my money given the usage of your truck.

[toad]

Thank you for your help and more importantly your honesty.

[TwinTurbo]

Originally Posted by cleatus12r

...anyway, it means very little because NOTHING that one can do to a truck is actually going to make it any better in every regard than the stock hardware.

I agree with you in this particular application about the injectors, however I would like to point out and have you clarify (as you've eluded to your dislike of upgrades, on more than one occasion), how "NOTHING" is better than stock hardware. The 6.0 powerstroke is the example I will use, but it is not limited to one manufacturer. The OEM's have all been know to cut corners to keep costs down or have there hands tied by emission regulations. How do you explain the EGR cooler failures and the "improved" aftermarket ones? Also the FICM reprograms and ECM rollbacks? Or something as simple as the intercooler hoses that were known to blow off? And that's just one engine, I'm sure we could go on and on, yes there are a lot of snake-oil products out there, but there are also many quality aftermarket products that, if not always better are at least equal to OEM's, for a fraction of the cost. The Agricultural market is just as bad, there are certain parts that come from the same manufacturer but cost twice as much from the dealer. So the price alone makes it better than stock hardware. Personally, when I see new equipment with problems and warranty work or repeated failures of of the same component it makes me wonder what else they overlooked or could have done better. Just to clarify I don't expect them to be perfect, things break, I get it, but you can't just blindly follow anything or anybody either, balance is key. Just a friendly rebuttal, -Cheers.

[cleatus12r]

Originally Posted by TwinTurbo

The 6.0 powerstroke is the example I will use

The 6.0L is garbage. It started out as garbage and will never be anything but garbage. I won't even look at one cross-eyed for fear it might blow a head gasket. That's why Bill does those.

[cleatus12r]

Originally Posted by cleatus12r

The 6.0L is garbage. It started out as garbage and will never be anything but garbage. I won't even look at one cross-eyed for fear it might blow a head gasket. That's why Bill does those.

I guess I should elaborate.

You're right. A lot of OEM stuff fails too due to the economics involved in producing a vehicle. However, a lot of these failures are also due to experimental periods when the EPA steps in and (for lack of a better term) messes up the whole deal. In addition, competition in the market also plays a role.

You used the 6.0L as an example. In International/Navistar trim, the VT365 was rated at a much lower horsepower level and was programmed to run significantly fewer RPM. Keep in mind that the medium-duty truck market wasn't as emissions-strangled at the time by our friends at the EPA so they weren't equipped with EGR at the time. You don't hear of too many failures with those trucks (at least the failures that were common to Ford F250/350 trucks). Ford stepped in and said, "We can make this engine turn 4000 RPM and make 320+ horsepower!!" All the while, the EPA mandated the usage of EGR on this engine since it was a light-duty truck.

Ford's adoption of the VT365 was completely EPA-mandated. Ford needed an engine to replace the T444E and the 6.0L was rushed to market with many shortcomings. Obviously, we see where that got us.......

Over the years, Ford has inundated it's customers with reflash after reflash after reflash; each subsequent reflash reduced power and made the engine less efficient. Unfortunately, this probably wasn't an EPA mandate, but an upper echelon call to reduce warranty work due to aggressive factory tuning that may have been causing head gasket and/or EGR cooler failures. Basically, Ford was trying to save money on warranty work.

Don't get me wrong. I worked as a GM technician for a decade and have been a professional automotive technician since 1999. I now work on heavy equipment and I have seen MANY, MANY failed factory attempts at making quality machines. My main beef is with the "requisite" parts that are constantly pushed on people to make their trucks "better", when, in fact, they're just throwing their money away.