Tuning for injectors

[TwinTurbo]

Originally Posted by cleatus12r

...anyway, it means very little because NOTHING that one can do to a truck is actually going to make it any better in every regard than the stock hardware.

I agree with you in this particular application about the injectors, however I would like to point out and have you clarify (as you've eluded to your dislike of upgrades, on more than one occasion), how "NOTHING" is better than stock hardware. The 6.0 powerstroke is the example I will use, but it is not limited to one manufacturer. The OEM's have all been know to cut corners to keep costs down or have there hands tied by emission regulations. How do you explain the EGR cooler failures and the "improved" aftermarket ones? Also the FICM reprograms and ECM rollbacks? Or something as simple as the intercooler hoses that were known to blow off? And that's just one engine, I'm sure we could go on and on, yes there are a lot of snake-oil products out there, but there are also many quality aftermarket products that, if not always better are at least equal to OEM's, for a fraction of the cost. The Agricultural market is just as bad, there are certain parts that come from the same manufacturer but cost twice as much from the dealer. So the price alone makes it better than stock hardware. Personally, when I see new equipment with problems and warranty work or repeated failures of of the same component it makes me wonder what else they overlooked or could have done better. Just to clarify I don't expect them to be perfect, things break, I get it, but you can't just blindly follow anything or anybody either, balance is key. Just a friendly rebuttal, -Cheers.

[cleatus12r]

Originally Posted by TwinTurbo

The 6.0 powerstroke is the example I will use

The 6.0L is garbage. It started out as garbage and will never be anything but garbage. I won't even look at one cross-eyed for fear it might blow a head gasket. That's why Bill does those.

[cleatus12r]

Originally Posted by cleatus12r

The 6.0L is garbage. It started out as garbage and will never be anything but garbage. I won't even look at one cross-eyed for fear it might blow a head gasket. That's why Bill does those.

I guess I should elaborate.

You're right. A lot of OEM stuff fails too due to the economics involved in producing a vehicle. However, a lot of these failures are also due to experimental periods when the EPA steps in and (for lack of a better term) messes up the whole deal. In addition, competition in the market also plays a role.

You used the 6.0L as an example. In International/Navistar trim, the VT365 was rated at a much lower horsepower level and was programmed to run significantly fewer RPM. Keep in mind that the medium-duty truck market wasn't as emissions-strangled at the time by our friends at the EPA so they weren't equipped with EGR at the time. You don't hear of too many failures with those trucks (at least the failures that were common to Ford F250/350 trucks). Ford stepped in and said, "We can make this engine turn 4000 RPM and make 320+ horsepower!!" All the while, the EPA mandated the usage of EGR on this engine since it was a light-duty truck.

Ford's adoption of the VT365 was completely EPA-mandated. Ford needed an engine to replace the T444E and the 6.0L was rushed to market with many shortcomings. Obviously, we see where that got us.......

Over the years, Ford has inundated it's customers with reflash after reflash after reflash; each subsequent reflash reduced power and made the engine less efficient. Unfortunately, this probably wasn't an EPA mandate, but an upper echelon call to reduce warranty work due to aggressive factory tuning that may have been causing head gasket and/or EGR cooler failures. Basically, Ford was trying to save money on warranty work.

Don't get me wrong. I worked as a GM technician for a decade and have been a professional automotive technician since 1999. I now work on heavy equipment and I have seen MANY, MANY failed factory attempts at making quality machines. My main beef is with the "requisite" parts that are constantly pushed on people to make their trucks "better", when, in fact, they're just throwing their money away.

[INFRNL]

I can agree with Cleatus's comment about trying to make my truck better, but I have actually thrown money away.

Cleatus, I'm am curious what your truck is and have you done anything to it?

If I started over, I would probably do gauges, php tunes, exhaust, and something to cure turbo surge. Oh, I would also do a Tamar style air filter or AIS. Everything else I have done, probably wasn't worth the money, with the exception of my BTS tranny. I better quit now

[Highbeam]

Good thread for those of us that aren't drag racers. I hate to say the word but I have made some solid upgrades to my truck that I highly recommend.

The Ford AIS air intake system is a huge improvement in quality and filtration over the stock system that is known to fail.

The auxiliary transmission cooler allows me to use the truck as Ford intended. Even at stock power levels the stock trans fluid cooler is so small that the trans will overheat in normal conditions.

Neither of these added power but they were upgrades for reliability and dependability. I think it is too much to say that all changes from OEM are downgrades. I do understand your point though, that some mods are best left undone.

[cleatus12r]

Originally Posted by Highbeam

Even at stock power levels the stock trans fluid cooler is so small that the trans will overheat in normal conditions.

If a truck's transmission fluid is overheating (stock or otherwise), one needs to rethink the way they're using the truck.

An automatic transmission's fluid gets hot because of two things:
1: The torque converter clutch is never commanded to be applied. Fluid coupling creates a ton of heat in the fluid. Low speed (typically under 45 MPH) will cause the torque converter clutch to remain disengaged (depending on tuning). That's the main reason transmission temperatures soar in around-town driving.

2: There is friction material not holding against the steel plates. "Slippage" is a major cause of heat and the transmission will not live long under these circumstances. Whether the transmission is just old or there is too much power input, slippage is death to a transmission; and it will NEVER get better. Once the frictions are glazed and the steels begin to get hot spots, the transmission needs a rebuild.

It does not matter one bit about whether the truck is stock or not but whether the transmission is healthy and can withstand additional power input. An additional cooler (or a larger one) is always a good idea and I won't knock anyone for adding one. Just know that masking problems isn't a good practice.

[Dieselcat]

I have been waiting for a thread like this for awhile , though I thought
Cleatus would say "with tunes we can do anything!" Now that my
reality has been shattered what do you think about larger injectors just
to maximize the tunes you have. I know with my stock sticks I am only
getting 60 out of 80 on my daily driver. I was just thinking of stage 1
Injectors to help pull my trailer on a daily basis. My trailer is only 4I in weight.

[cleatus12r]

Originally Posted by Dieselcat

I have been waiting for a thread like this for awhile , though I thought Cleatus would say "with tunes we can do anything!"

Huh? I'll be the first to tell anyone that nobody's tunes are perfect and that nobody can overcome physical hardware limitations regardless of what is promised by a tuning company.

I'm too damn honest to be a salesperson. That's why I keep my PHP job as a cubicle jockey.

Originally Posted by Dieselcat

Now that my reality has been shattered what do you think about larger injectors just to maximize the tunes you have. I know with my stock sticks I am only getting 60 out of 80 on my daily driver. I was just thinking of stage 1
Injectors to help pull my trailer on a daily basis. My trailer is only 4I in weight.

I will start by saying that if your EGT is high now (or hard to keep below 1200 degrees), then don't even consider "larger" injectors for towing. If you want more power, we can certainly do that. Just don't expect to tow anything with more RWHP than what you are making now. The additional power can be used for short bursts on a 1995-1997 truck, but you'll find that EGT climbs like a mad chief when more fuel is introduced. Heck, last week I had one heck of a time with my 1995 while towing 6500 lbs. in 95 degree heat on a tune that is marginally more powerful than stock; I'd venture to guess 40-50 HP, but it's a new tune and I haven't put the truck on a dyno with that tune yet.

I'm thinking of sending in the AA injectors in the 1995 to have some 80% nozzles put on them. EGT is the reason. It's perfectly logical to expect a slight EGT reduction with larger nozzles (to a point) since I don't plan on doing anything else to the stock truck.

[Dieselcat]

Oh don't get me wrong, I know tunes can't do everything.
I can tell you with the few mods that I have and with
your tunes I can live with what I have if I have to.
I am worried about what you stated about towing under 45
because that is 80% of my towing. I think I need to look
into a good Trans cooler.
I appreciate your total and honest opinion.

[cleatus12r]

If you're running a stock transmission cooler on a 1995-1997 truck, by all means get a larger cooler. The stock transmission cooler on an older Powerstroke is barely large enough to function as a power steering cooler. Come to think of it, the stock transmission cooler on an old Powerstroke looks just like the power steering coolers Ford used on the 70's boat cars (my ex-wife's Torino had one).

I have three coolers on my 1995 that are connected in parallel. It stays nice and cool. However, I don't worry about temperatures below 240 degrees.