E-85 tune for gas engine?

PhqChevys · #1 Fri, July 31st, 2009, 11:14 PM

My '07 F-150 isn't E-85 like most '07's out there. But E-85 is really cheap where I live. Can you write a tune that will convert the truck to E-85, or is there sensors or other things that my truck is missing to make it a Flex Fuel truck?

***Power Hungry*** · #2 Sun, August 2nd, 2009, 02:29 AM

The calibration isn't set up to run as a "flex-fuel" type truck but we can do calibrations that will take advantage of the higher octane rating of E-85 fuel. With a slightly more aggressive timing curve and fuel mixture, they can run pretty well. Not as good as straight gasoline, but pretty close.

***Jackpine*** · #3 Sun, August 2nd, 2009, 09:35 AM

I'd be worried though about the effect of E85 on components. Aren't special materials used in flex fuel vehicles and doesn't Ford say NO to using E85 in a non-flex fuel truck?

- Jack

***Power Hungry*** · #4 Sun, August 2nd, 2009, 03:08 PM

In going through the parts lists on a FFV vs. a non-FFV, I'm hard pressed to find any difference in components. The service manager at one of our local Ford dealers also indicated to me that there isn't any significant difference in the builds of the vehicles or in replacement parts. Now this could mean that all replacement parts are FFV compatible while there are differences during manufacturing, or it could mean that there really isn't any difference.

The biggest concern is obviously going to be the fuel tank, fuel pump, and fuel lines, since the engines (including injectors) are identical. In investigating replacement components for these, I've not noticed any separation in part numbers for FFV and non-FFV vehicles.

I am continuing to investigate any possible differences in manufacturing and further validate my findings, but so far there doesn't seem to be any real reason why you can't run E85 in late model vehicles, so long as the tuning supports it.

PhqChevys · #5 Sat, August 8th, 2009, 11:58 AM

I talked with Ford while I was there yesterday. The service manager and the guy at the parts counter told me that the parts used between the FFV and Gas versions of the truck are the same. They said that Ford uses the same parts during assemble to simplify the assembly process, there was only 2 exceptions, the in tank fuel pump and the computer calibration. Besides that, the injectors, fuel rail, fuel lines, ect. are all the same. Now, like I said, this is just what they TOLD me, no other verification than that, I may be wrong, may be right...just passing on information...

***Jackpine*** · #6 Sat, August 8th, 2009, 01:56 PM

Sounds like it COULD be true, and if so, it supports those who say E85 can be run in any truck. Wonder what the fuel pump difference is though?

- Jack

PhqChevys · #7 Sat, August 8th, 2009, 09:00 PM

Probably the seals in the pump. That's the only thing I could think of...maybe the impeller...who knows. I bet that once they deplete the inventory, every part will be FFV except the tune. But, like I said...that's just what they told me...

chester8420 · #8 Sun, August 9th, 2009, 04:55 PM

I have run E-85 in my non FFV 1997 F150 for several years. About 150,000 miles or so... It still runs good at over 300,000 miles, and I was on my stock fuel pump until about 1,000 miles ago. After 9 yrs of farm use it was about time for a fuel pump anyway, so I don't really attribute its failure to E-85.

There are a few issues with running E-85 in a non-ffv truck.

The truck doesn't crank as easily on a very cold day.

You have to gradually convert from gasoline to E-85. You can't just run the gas tank dry and switch to E-85... The non ffv computer program does not allow the trim tables to be adjusted aggressively enough to make the instantaneous jump from 14.7:1 to 9:1 all at once. Also, depending on your vehicle's "adaptability", you may lean out above 4,000 rpm. This will produce a noticable "flat spot" in your hp curve.

You will most likely get a CEL. The codes you get will tell you if the conversion was successful.... If you get 2 lean codes only, then it was successful... If you get "O2 sensor lack of switching" errors, and circuit malfunctions, then it was not successful. It will still run, but it will be running very lean, and have no power.

It would take a long time for me to explain all the issues that arise with running E-85 in a non ffv. Some vehicles (like my dad's 2000 V10) convert over with no problems. Some have more difficulty.

But it is possible, and by my experience, it doesn't hurt it.

If you want to try a bit, just mix a 50/50 e-85/gasoline mixture. Most newer vehicles will run on that with no problems and no CEL.

***Jackpine*** · #9 Sun, August 9th, 2009, 07:36 PM

Good information chester! Thanks for posting it.

- Jack

muns53 · #10 Sun, August 9th, 2009, 09:49 PM

I'm glad to hear you're able to do ethanol tuning!! From everything I've read, it's not a matter of components at all; all modern cars can run on ethanol. Just like diesels were originally intended to run on farm-based oil crop fuels, the gas motor was designed to run on farm-based alcohols. For example, the first Fords (Model A's, etc.) had adjustment knobs and levers in the cab that the driver could fool with to optimize the carberator based on the fuel he had access to. In the city, he was buying petroleum-based gas; in the country, he was buying alcohol/ethanol.

Ethanol is 106+ octane (depends on what blend), though and burns cleaner and cooler and more completely than gas, so it's actually a much better fuel. Engines running ethanol have almost no carbon build-up and last longer because of the lower temps. Most of the problems with fuel mileage dropping are a result of trying to use it in an engine optimized for a dirty, hot-burning, low-octane fuel (gasoline); but an ethanol-optimized engine actually produces better fuel mileage than the same engine optimized for gas; primarily because it burns more completely.

In the colder climates, a "cold-start" device helps get the motor running. There's a variety of ways to do it - propane/ether injectors; a small gasoline tank to start the motor on; or a glow plug device (like a diesel) to warm up the combustion chamber.

I'm in the process of building a micro-scale refinery (same basic process as moonshine; larger scale) to make ethanol and will convert my gas engines over to run on it after some experimentation. (Maybe I need to get another Ford vehicle so Bill can write the tune for it!)

If anyone learns further about component differences b/t flex-fuel and straight gas Fords, I hope you'll post more info in this thread.