Ford's on Top!

[johnnyd]

Originally Posted by JackandJanet

Bill, maybe the answer is that we DON'T get off the soapbox.

Deep down inside, I DO think our elected officials listen to us IF we make enough noise. (As Janet is fond of quoting, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease").

The trouble is, this whole financial mess is so interrelated. You can't have manufacturing without banks. Workers ARE entitled to decent wages, based on their skills and knowledge and unions have helped them achieve that. Government HAS to subsidize promising technology, or it never advances past the "promise" stage.

Possibly, just possibly, we in America have become too used to an inflated standard of living. Should we all accept the "China model"? What is it, about $300/month and NO benefits?

Really, we simply (and it's not so simple) need to learn how to compete/coexist in a global economy. And, it's getting more and more global every day.

I, for one, appreciate your business model, which seems to be: "Give value to our customers, who are our friends".

I don't think I'm alone in my appreciation.

- Jack

Unions have helped them get a descent wage for their skills? Are you serious? Help me understand the skills that they brought to the table when they where hired in and the value of those skills. In what ways did these skills help the company?

[Jackpine]

Originally Posted by johnnyd

Unions have helped them get a descent wage for their skills? Are you serious? Help me understand the skills that they brought to the table when they where hired in and the value of those skills. In what ways did these skills help the company?

Ah - I don't think the auto companies hire workers that are proficient only in camel driving or cotton picking and who can't learn more. Somehow, I expect they want workers that know something about machining, assembly, finishing, electrical work, etc. These are the skills I was talking about. Perhaps the company even taught them those skills - far enough. Airlines train their pilots to fly the company's equipment. Doctors get continuation training. Mechanics get OJT. Same concept.

Once trained, as a mechanic, assembly line technician, pilot, doctor, lawyer, soldier, etc., you should be paid for what you bring to the job. IF not, well then, let ANYBODY do those jobs. Want to let Bubba, in East Overall Patches, MS, come in off the farm and jump into the pilot's seat for your next airline trip?

So, is everyone overpaid? Perhaps. Are you willing to take a pay cut?

Henry Ford shocked the auto industry when he started paying his workers $5+ an hour. Suddenly, they could afford to buy the cars they made. Everyone warned that would be the death of the auto industry. Did it happen? Shouldn't auto workers be able to afford to buy cars?

- Jack

[johnnyd]

I agree, once trained (any profession really) they should be paid for thier skills. All of the jobs you mentioned (w/one exception) require additional training/schooling other than a high school diploma and most of the time it's on their dime. Your not comparing apples to apples here.

My brother is a pilot for Delta Connection. Delta did give him some training once he was hired. Of course it ran him about 75k in student loans, several hundreds of hours in flight time, book training, instructing, and many extra expensive hours in the flight S.I.M.S. to get to that point. He is currently flying a CRJ 700. He has been flying for Delta for over a year now as 1st Officer. How much do you think he makes? Try in the low 40's. I don't think any of us have to worry about "Bubba comin' in off the farm and jumpin' in the pilot seat ".

What certifications are the UAW's requiring applicants to have? Good high school GPA's and SAT scores? Having a family member already working there? Big deal!! The average wage for them is what, 27 bucks an hour? That's over 50k annually. Doing what, working an assembly line.

I'm in the home building business and saw change back in late 05 (bought my truck in July 05, things were great ). Then, all of a sudden, business dropped off and I mean dropped off. We rode it out for 06' tightening things up and selling off inventory. In 07' we realized we needed to make cuts asap. Was I willing to take a pay cut? You betcha'! It's not always about now but the future, I want the company to survive. I took a 10% cut in early 07' and have not received a bonus or a raise since. Business is bad. Concessions need to be made. If your not willing to roll with the times then I suggest you find another job. When the times improve and the company regains it's profitability margins people will be rewarded with pay increases and maybe even a bonus. Until then......survival mode.

Anyways, I think the era of the UAW needs to be in the history books.

John

[Jackpine]

Hi John -

I suspect we aren't too far apart on this at all. I too, have very little use for unions in these times.

I remember once when I was in the Air Force, I was appointed to investigate a union grievance in the Motor Pool (civilian workers). I found the grievance was one of several that had been filed by the Shop Steward (an apprentice mechanic) on behalf of himself. He felt he was not being paid at the appropriate level. Interestingly, the only one on his side was the Union Representative. Everyone else in the shop told me he was a lazy sh*t who was out sick all the time, or if he was there, he was always engaged in "union business". So, I put all that in my report (but was never told what happened later).

I also agree with you that the feeder airline pilots don't make much at all. Our oldest son is a 1st officer with United, and he's seen his pay cut a lot. Happily, for the next year or so, he seems to be back on full time with the Navy Reserve, and he's happier there.

And, I'm not totally opposed to pay cuts either, as long as they're across the board and effect EVERYONE, including management, by the same percentage (with no hidden perks for the corner office folks). Yes, if a company has to do that to survive, then everyone should just be happy to be working.

Lee Iacocca showed how to save a company without costing the taxpayers a dime. In fact, the Government MADE money by guaranteeing Chrysler's loans. Wish we had more leaders like him.

Peace brother. Hope the building industry turns around soon for you!

- Jack

[Power Hungry]

Men like Lee Iacocca, Ross Perot, and even Sam Walton (I'll catch crap for that last one, I'm sure) knew how to run a business.

The problem is when government gets in the way of... or gets involved in... private business. Unions are not business, they are government. Not Oval Office type of government mind you, but they are a governing body trying to control private business through influence and corporations have no choice but to yield to their pressure for fear of strikes. Unfortunately, it's always the consumer that suffers.

In a free enterprise system, a company should be able to hire or fire who they want and pay each person based on a negotiated amount at the time of hiring. If an employee doesn't like the wages, benefits, or anything else about the job, then they are free to quit. Where unions should be involved is ensuring a safe workplace that is free of harassment and prejudice, not making sure that Joe the Plumber is making more that Joe the Cop.

Capitol Hill is just another Union of sorts. There is a serious problem when lawmakers get big, fat paychecks and cushy benefits for signing a couple papers a year when Rescue Services, Police Officers and even Military Personnel get crap for risking their lives. Cap the Politician's salary to 75k a year (which is still twice what a teacher makes) and you'll quickly find that the only people who want to be politicians are people who really want to make a difference in the way our government is run.

I could go on and on but complaining about the government is a waste of breath at this point, and I have better things to do.

[johnnyd]

Originally Posted by JackandJanet

Hi John -

I suspect we aren't too far apart on this at all. I too, have very little use for unions in these times.

I remember once when I was in the Air Force, I was appointed to investigate a union grievance in the Motor Pool (civilian workers). I found the grievance was one of several that had been filed by the Shop Steward (an apprentice mechanic) on behalf of himself. He felt he was not being paid at the appropriate level. Interestingly, the only one on his side was the Union Representative. Everyone else in the shop told me he was a lazy sh*t who was out sick all the time, or if he was there, he was always engaged in "union business". So, I put all that in my report (but was never told what happened later).

I also agree with you that the feeder airline pilots don't make much at all. Our oldest son is a 1st officer with United, and he's seen his pay cut a lot. Happily, for the next year or so, he seems to be back on full time with the Navy Reserve, and he's happier there.

And, I'm not totally opposed to pay cuts either, as long as they're across the board and effect EVERYONE, including management, by the same percentage (with no hidden perks for the corner office folks). Yes, if a company has to do that to survive, then everyone should just be happy to be working.

Lee Iacocca showed how to save a company without costing the taxpayers a dime. In fact, the Government MADE money by guaranteeing Chrysler's loans. Wish we had more leaders like him.

Peace brother. Hope the building industry turns around soon for you!

- Jack

Yeah, I'd say we have some similar view points too.

Happy Holidays and thanks :xmashappy:

Originally Posted by Power Hungry

Men like Lee Iacocca, Ross Perot, and even Sam Walton (I'll catch crap for that last one, I'm sure) knew how to run a business.

The problem is when government gets in the way of... or gets involved in... private business. Unions are not business, they are government. Not Oval Office type of government mind you, but they are a governing body trying to control private business through influence and corporations have no choice but to yield to their pressure for fear of strikes. Unfortunately, it's always the consumer that suffers.

In a free enterprise system, a company should be able to hire or fire who they want and pay each person based on a negotiated amount at the time of hiring. If an employee doesn't like the wages, benefits, or anything else about the job, then they are free to quit. Where unions should be involved is ensuring a safe workplace that is free of harassment and prejudice, not making sure that Joe the Plumber is making more that Joe the Cop.

Capitol Hill is just another Union of sorts. There is a serious problem when lawmakers get big, fat paychecks and cushy benefits for signing a couple papers a year when Rescue Services, Police Officers and even Military Personnel get crap for risking their lives. Cap the Politician's salary to 75k a year (which is still twice what a teacher makes) and you'll quickly find that the only people who want to be politicians are people who really want to make a difference in the way our government is run.

I could go on and on but complaining about the government is a waste of breath at this point, and I have better things to do.

I couldn't agree more, well spoken (or written rather)

[88Racing]

Okay guys don't bash the unions to hard now. Cause believe it or not you are a part of one The UNITED States of America. Unions get their constitutions from the constitution. Read the book The Jungle, it's about industrial revolution and how the common working man and immigrants got $hit on. Most of the unions today are involved with skills and these people go through the ranks from the ground up. I'll agree their are lazy bastards in the unions who don't deserve to work. The RATS in this country and the white collar workers sure like to take it out on them. Yes there are other ways for people to be trained to do a job. But it isn't the workers fault all the time that they are getting paid for what they do. Try going after the leaders of these organizations for once for they are the ones making the calls and not the worker. The workers can put there input in on their wages but in the end suits sit across the table from one another, negociate the contracts. Yes it will be voted on by the workers but not all the time the leaders are forth comming about the concesions in the contracts.

The auto mfg's are trouble primarely due to the fact that they are trying to buy their stock back from retirement accounts. Can you remember Enron same thing happening all over again just different companies. So which suits did this. The same three that show up to DC in three different corperate jets.

Lars