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#1
Sat, March 19th, 2011, 12:46 PM
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Custom Tunes with Champion 7879
Hey ya'll,
So I got my customs tunes a couple of months ago, I absolutely love the 87 performance turn and everything has been amazing. Recently, as my truck approached 75,000 miles, I opted to change my spark plugs as my 2 piece 3v plugs have such an issue with breaking. My local ford dealer (at least the one thats close to me that I would trust to take my truck to) had told me of their issues getting the motorcraft plugs out (they even kept a basket of broken spark plugs on their service desk). As such, I opted to try to the champion 7879 (I never thought a ford dealer wouldn't laugh at my idea to change them to champion, these guys thought it wasn't a bad an idea). I've had them in for probably 2500 miles, and so far they've done pretty well... however, my truck has started to develop a rough idle, only in gear and in park. I've tried bumping the idle speed up 50 rpm, and cleaned my MAF, to no real avail. What i'm wondering is there anything gryphon wise I might want to look at changing since i'm no longer running the factory plugs? I'm looking at spark advance mostly, something I normally wouldn't play with, or anything else?. I know our truck have a tendency to develop a rough idle, and this may just be something completely unrelated to this, just wondering if anybody had any ideas. Thanks!!! BTW, anybody in the Athens- GA area, Crawford ford got all my spark plugs out no problem, and their charge for broken plugs is lower than anybody else within 100 miles. |
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#2
Sat, March 19th, 2011, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Every account that I've read regarding Champions talks about poor running within 10,000 miles of installation. I suspect the plugs are the cause of your poor idle. If so, tuning will not help. I've only heard good things about Motorcraft (in spite of the poor 2-piece design) and Brisk plugs. Autolite plugs rank right along side of Champions in the Forums. And, I've not heard anything good about Bosch or any of the Japanese brands. I know I plan to reinstall Motorcraft plugs when I change mine (which will be probably toward the end of Summer). Why Champions don't work is beyond me. About the only thing that can be wrong is that they run either colder or hotter than the OEM plugs and that causes them to fail. I'd have to guess they might run colder and that would cause them to foul. If you remove yours, I'd like to see what they look like. - Jack
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 2024 F150 Platinum SCrew 3.5L PowerBoost FX4, Peragon Tonneau Cover, LineX Bed, 35% Window Tint on All Sides and Rear, Full Nose Paint Protection Film, Husky Mud Guards, Lasfit Floor Liners, VIOFO Dash Cam |
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#3
Sat, March 19th, 2011, 05:40 PM
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yeah, i've saw the mixed results on another forum, but figured at least if there was a problem I knew I could get them out, a plus. like i said so far, no problems, i actually got the idle problem fixed today; seems after i cleaned the MAF meter again and then reflashed the programming on my truck the idle issue is completely gone, smooth as silk.
If I start having issues with them and have to pull any, i know i'll post it on the F150online forum, and if you'd like i'll do it on here too. |
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#4
Sat, March 19th, 2011, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
- Jack |
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#5
Mon, March 21st, 2011, 10:37 AM
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All the stuff about Champions is a load of fecal matter from people who don't know much. Build enough spark plugs (3 million Champions a month IIRC) and you'll produce a few bad ones, but I submit, EVERY SINGLE MOTORCRAFT/AUTOLITE THAT WAS PRODUCED FOR THIS APPLICATION IS DEFECTIVE, certainly all those produced before the they were improved (even so, they are still two piece and STILL break). I switched out my plugs to Champs and have more than 10K on them. Running great! The truck has a fair bit of dyno time on it since then too.
I think most of the internet hype comes from a few persistent sources (I keep seeing the same pics over and over). Some may be legit but I haven't seen one that couldn't have been due to other problems. In some cases, they come from people who have done engine mods that require a different heat range. I know that Champ is planning to offer a few heat range options in the future (or maybe by now) but if you need a change (and you should know enough to know you do), it's not the plugs fault if you use the wrong range with your supercharged or modified engine. Some point to the difference in designs. Objectively, I see very little problem with the Champion design. They are one-piece, of course, which negates the breaking off issue. What about the rest of it? They are double platinum (meaning both the tip and electrode have platinum) and if you want that in a Motorcraft/Autolite, you have to pay about as much as the Champ costs. The U-gap ground electrode on the Autolite is often remarked upon, but in reality, it’s quite unremarkable. It tends to shroud the spark a bit vs a J-gap plug like the Champ. Note that the 3V plug upgrade for the later trucks is a J-gap type. J-gaps with small diameter center electrodes have generally proven to be most effective in today’s lean running engines. There are SAE white papers written on that fact but the bottom line is that for all intents and purposes, j-gap and u-gap perform pretty equally. As to gapping, at least you CAN easily regap the Champion. With the MC/AL, you can buy a $70 tool to do it (that's what the supercharger guys do) or you can put them into a vice and use a hammer. If you check a large batch of new Autolites you'll see the same variances in gaps as you might find with new Champs. All plug companies claim to offer “pregapped” plugs and we all know that’s hooey. Even if they leave the factory correctly pregapped, boxes get dropped and you may have to correct the gap. As to problems after installing Champs, some, if not most, of that can be traced back to things other than the spark plug. Here's one very important one. Note how much different the porcelain body of the Champ is vs the MC/AL. The Champ is smooth and a smaller diameter. Champ claims to use a better quality porcelain and that they don’t need as much porcelain, nor the ribs, to prevent arcing. I can’t verify that, but the difference in dimensions and profile are the important parts for us to note. The COP boot gets heat formed to the profile of the MC/AL. If you put that same boot onto the smaller diameter Champ, it leaves room for the spark to jump, and those Ford COPS will jump if you give them half a chance. I was told they can make up to 15 amps, not to mention 70K volts. A tight boot is vital, so if you want success with a Champ, REPLACE THE BOOTS. You really should do so with any plug change if the plug’s been in there a while, but it’s most important when changing brands of plug. I dug up every heat range chart I could find and I don’t know where this “Champion is the wrong heat range” stuff is coming from. At least as it applies to more or less stock engines. A substantially modified engine needs a different heat range from stock… that's "Car Guy 101." From what I can see, and have been told by engineers, the Champs are the correct heat range for a stock engine and they have run thousands of hours on dyno engines and in vehicles. Champ will soon be offering some other ranges, as do Autolite and Brisk, for supercharged and other racing or high performance apps. As to longevity, I take note in my own Ford manual, and others, that Ford recommends the 100K interval only in ideal conditions. For in town driving, slow speed, lots of idling… pretty much what most commuters do… they recommend 60K. I polled a number of good sources in shops that say seldom do anyone’s 100K spark plug intervals (regardless of spark plug) work out real-world. If you throw an 80K truck on the scope, regardless of spark plug, the odds are you will find room for improvement. With a double platinum design, I don’t know why a Champ wouldn’t last as long as any other premium plug,.. however long that may be according to the driving conditions. Want some tips to help avoid the breakage problem? Or make it easier when you go to remove Autolites? Run high detergent, Top Tier gasoline (Google "Top Tier Gasoline"). When I pulled my plugs in January ‘10, ALL EIGHT CAME OUT IN ONE PIECE! Very little carbon on the plugs, meaning the gas was keeping the carbon from playing "Loctite" and locking the plug in place. By running a couple of tanks of gas through before the change with a high concentration of a CC deposit remover additive like Chevron Techron or Shell V-Power might do the same thing for you. I didn't do that by the way and I only soaked the plugs for 15 min w/PB Blaster. It takes about 35 lbs-ft to break the tip off an Autolite. Clamp the base of a Champ into a vice, attach a torque wrench and see how much torque it takes to break. I have heard a few claims that the Champion plug is also two-piece due to the groove. It isn't. The groove you see on the plug is called a hot lock ring. The body is one piece, though that groove is machined into it. After the porcelain is installed, the body goes into a roller device and about 10,000 psi is applied along with high current to heat it and that slightly compresses the body around the porcelain to hold it place. Yeah, that might be a weaker spot than the rest of the body but it's still as thick as the tube around the around the porcelain near the center electrode. It will take a lot more than 35 lbs-ft to break. I don't have any input on what might be casing a rough idle.... actually I think you found the trouble. Could be anything from some of the stuff I mentioned above, to a bad injector to fuel systems deposits. Could even be the plug... who knows. If it is, it doesn't mean that ALL Champions are bad. But at least if you have to change the plug, you know it will stay in one piece when you do! Unfortunately for Champion, there are still a lot of old timers (and I used to be one) that remember the "Bad old days of Champion" in the '80s. Time and companies change. You need to look at TODAY and decide, not 25 years ago. People still say Pennzoil and Quaker state put wax in your engine. Sorry for foaming at the mouth over this ( : < ). I am wiping the spittle away now. I do feel better though! Last edited by Jim Allen; Mon, March 21st, 2011 at 10:59 AM. |
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#6
Mon, March 21st, 2011, 01:16 PM
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Good post, Jim. Please note I was not speaking from experience, but only reporting on what I've read. And, I've posted this before, I really cannot understand why any plug would not work in ANY engine as long as it's the right heat range. The design is simplicity to the extreme. Yes, it has to stand up to very high temperatures and it has to be resistant to deposits that can cause fouling, but that''s about it.
Good to hear you've gotten good results with Champions. And thanks for posting the advice about the boots too. Makes sense to me!  - Jack |
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