Towing CAI Question

[Keeblerz28]

Originally Posted by 88Racing

How conviniant that K+N just so happens to use the GM mass air flow for its testing.

Why would the car brand make any difference? The same K&N filter technology & same oil is used on all their filters...

Originally Posted by 88Racing

Also their tests are biased due to that they performed them and did not have third party intervention.
I challenge you to find third party testing before you announce BUSTED!

As for 3rd party testing, how about the 107 supposedly defective sensors that were returned to them, 65 were totally fine! They sent the 23 malfunctioning ones to an independent lab (3rd party) to examine and determine contaminants. NONE had k&N oil on them. This is all from the first video link I provided earlier.

What about the millions of other filters they have sold over the years? Just think of how many millions of miles have been driven with their filters? How more unbiased a study do you want?

I have a technical background, I work in a lab, and I do a lot of testing according to standards. So I can appreciate when a company spends the time to do the R&D, with a dedicated test fixture, with annually calibrated instruments. You won't even find that at Mythbusters...

This myth is busted, IMO

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by Keeblerz28

As for 3rd party testing, how about the 107 supposedly defective sensors that were returned to them, 65 were totally fine! They sent the 23 malfunctioning ones to an independent lab (3rd party) to examine and determine contaminants. NONE had k&N oil on them.

There's no question that many automotive "Technicians" are merely parts changers, with often inadequate diagnostic training if any at all. I don't doubt that a number of sampled MAF sensors we completely fine and were replaced with the "Well, let's replace it and see if it fixes it" approach.

I think the point being made is that K&N was the party that was handling the testing (at least as far as which "independent" company handled the testing) as well as handling the information on their results. With this in mind, it's possible (although I'd hope unlikely) that they could intentionally obfuscate the facts in their favor. I think it would be more credible if a fully independent test, of which K&N had no control whatsoever, was done.

Originally Posted by Keeblerz28

What about the millions of other filters they have sold over the years? Just think of how many millions of miles have been driven with their filters? How more unbiased a study do you want?

I can't offer any opinion on that without case studies of applications, vehicle types, induction systems, maintenance procedures, and about a zillion other things that would have any bearing on this discussion.

Originally Posted by Keeblerz28

I have a technical background, I work in a lab, and I do a lot of testing according to standards. So I can appreciate when a company spends the time to do the R&D, with a dedicated test fixture, with annually calibrated instruments. You won't even find that at Mythbusters...

I can appreciate your work environment and training, and with that in mind I can understand how people can be opinionated, especially in regards to supporting opinions with empirical data. Again, if the testing was handled entirely by a third party, then I would have a better feeling about the results. Because K&N was so involved in the testing, it leaves room for doubt.

For example:

A few years ago, Ford was reflashing 6.0L trucks with updated ECM/TCM/FICM strategies and IMMEDIATELY (as in before they even left the parking lot) customers noticed a loss of performance and subsequently noticed losses in fuel economy. Ford, in response to these complaints, did study of these complaints and this was what they had found:

http://www.gopowerhungry.com/Downloads/6.0L Fuel Economy Test.pdf

Apparently, it's Ford's opinion that there is no problem with the updated strategies and that all the customers that have lost performance and fuel economy must be suffering from some sort of mass delusion. Just because the manufacturer claims it, doesn't make it so.

For what it's worth, I have PERSONALLY removed MAF sensors from vehicles that had oil residue on and in the units, not to mention all down the intake tubes. This would be, presumably, from improper/over oiling of the filter element. While the sensors hadn't "failed" per se, the oil coating the sensor wires would cause delayed response of the sensor by insulating the thermal transfer across the sensing element. This would result in backfiring, throttle hesitation, and minor drivability issues. A simple cleaning with electronics cleaner and the residue was removed and the drivability symptoms would clear right up. Based on K&N's testing though, I must be crazy to think their filter had anything to do with the problems.

Originally Posted by Keeblerz28

This myth is busted and so are your pathetic arguments.

One final thought... We always enjoy in partaking of a hearty, and sometimes even heated, discussion on a variety of subjects. However, our forum is based on the respect of other members, and as such, insults will not be tolerated. Calling someone's arguments or opinions "pathetic" is not only unacceptable, it's not conducive to argument/debate process. If that type of behavior continues, the consequences will be swift and severe. Keep it respectful, and we'll all get along just fine.

Take care.

[Jackpine]

I'm going to add something here. The rental property we own recently had a "gas furnace" problem. I investigated and found the furnace would light, but almost immediately, the gas would be shut off. There was a trouble code light, but six flashes was not on the list, so, I called in a "pro".

There's a "sensor", that detects flame and if it doesn't "see" the fire, it shuts off the gas to prevent a gas buildup. This sensing "probe" can become "dirty". The technician cleaned it (wiped it off on his pants actually) and surprise! The furnace works just fine!

Guess what? The sensor sends a millivolt signal to a control board. Sound familiar? It doesn't take a whole lot to corrupt this signal, and, I suspect it doesn't take a whole lot to corrupt the MAF sensor signal either.

So, I said I liked K&N's response and I even pointed out that Bluejay has been using a K&N filter without difficulty for MANY miles. But, what they say based on their own (probably biased) testing is NOT proof!

Please don't confuse a manufacturer's claims with fact. Everyone puts a "spin" on things.

And, here in the PHP forum, we treat each other with respect. We do not say something like: "This myth is busted and so are your ******** arguments."

Thanks in advance for understanding how we work here.

- Jack

[88Racing]

Originally Posted by Keeblerz28

Why would the car brand make any difference? The same K&N filter technology & same oil is used on all their filters...


As for 3rd party testing, how about the 107 supposedly defective sensors that were returned to them, 65 were totally fine! They sent the 23 malfunctioning ones to an independent lab (3rd party) to examine and determine contaminants. NONE had k&N oil on them. This is all from the first video link I provided earlier.

What about the millions of other filters they have sold over the years? Just think of how many millions of miles have been driven with their filters? How more unbiased a study do you want?

I have a technical background, I work in a lab, and I do a lot of testing according to standards. So I can appreciate when a company spends the time to do the R&D, with a dedicated test fixture, with annually calibrated instruments. You won't even find that at Mythbusters...

This myth is busted and so are your ******** arguments.

I guess 26+ years of working on vehicles and using performance products doesn't mean much when I try to add something to a discussion.

[Longshot270]

Originally Posted by 88Racing

I guess 26+ years of working on vehicles and using performance products doesn't mean much when I try to add something to a discussion.

No, because companies dont lie to make you more willing to buy their product. Kinda like everyone knows redbull really gives you wings.

[88Racing]

Originally Posted by Longshot270

No, because companies dont lie to make you more willing to buy their product. Kinda like everyone knows redbull really gives you wings.

There you go!
Poor that in your tank!
It will really give your truck wings!
Redbull says it themselves!!!!!
But
Not the type of wings that will make your truck fly!
Only the ones it'll get after you have to put it in a grave yard!

[Keeblerz28]

I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I'm sorry if I did.

I don't believe that I called anyone any names, used profanity, etc, and I also understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I merely was trying to have a meaningful, fact-based debate by sourcing a reference. (ISO 9001 certified, fwiw)

I'm not trying to be difficult or a pain in the __. I just want the forums I spend time on to be able to answer questions as good as possible. I'm sure you understand that this often means its a group effort, so I just don't want anyone to take anything personally if it looks like I'm trying to correct someone.

I've been kicked off another forum before (reinstated after I talked to the moderator) and I don't want to have to go through that here.

I would gladly discuss anything further with anyone via PM.

According to a UCLA study, 93% of communication is non verbal cues... yet we find ourselves in a world of emails, texts, and other electronic messages (like this one)

-Dave

[88Racing]

How do I want to address your issue?
I'm not calling anyone names.
I'm just trying to dispell the corperate propaganda that these companies force feed the propective customers.
Alls I ever said was the testing was a bit one sided.
Believe it or not:
K+N IS one of the better CAI applications to tune with on these trucks.
It has the least amount of droan to contend with besides the 3" AF1(which is not made anymore).
Its just the customers own oiling practices sometimes defeat the sysytem and allow it to foul.
Yes.
I do believe that over oiling is a big factor with any oiled filter application not just to the MAF but to the gumming of the TB also.
Take a step back and look at the problem/situation from the whole perspective.
Set your learnings asside and open your mind to other members views and experiences.
Peace!